Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[wingsandsword]

I am sure you have a link wingsandsword.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ For the podcasts in general

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/111/bsg_ep111_FULL.mp3 For the Colonial Day commentary specifically. The part I quoted is between 3:55 to 5:54 in the file, quite early on as he's introducing the episode.

 

[Storm Raven]

Military has their own laws. Under those laws you are required to obey your commander and follow all orders given out. Those military laws will still exist even if the civilian government gets wiped out.

Umm, no they don't. The laws that the military operate under, in every government in existence, are derived from the government itself. No government, no military laws. To cite a very concrete example - the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force.

Got an actual example of 12 planets coming together under one flag?

You mean like, say 13 colonies uniting in one government?

If they want to survive they better listen to what the military says. Their civilian government isn't going to protect them from cylons.

And who exactly is the Galactica crew looking to to supply new recruits and the support infrastructure necessary to continue operating? They are interdependent.

 

[jasper]

the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force....
No. If Dc would get nuked today, the jarheads would still be here and most would follow orders of their commanders. Those like Apollo would either be shot right away (like a cowardly female in last week episode) or in the brig. Apollo is in the brig and the only reason the female did not get shot was in was not in the story line.

 

[Storm Raven]

You obviously know nothing about military command.

Get back to something resembling reality in your argument. Military structure only has authority derived from the government - the civilian government. Without the rule of law, "military command" has no legitimacy. This has been explicitly pointed out in the series by Apollo, a point you conveniently have forgotten. His quote concerning whether lawful elections should be held: "If there is no law, then you aren't President, I'm not a captain, and I don't owe you anything." If your "argument" (to dignify your specious ramblings far more than they deserve) was true, then Apollo would still be a captain even if the civilian government didn't follow the law. Obviously he doesn't consider that to be true, which means, like in the U.S. (for example) military authority is derived from ultimately the rule of law.

One that seperates civilian and military government.

Name one. Just one. Once you do that, then you might have an argument. Until then, you are just talking out of your rear end.

Yet there are many of the colonists who do not believe in the Lords. Their government isn't unified by a religion either. The majority do not control the government.

Except they certainly seem to. Note that when Roslin announced her visions to the quorum, they immediately consulted the religious authority on hand for confirmation. No one said "hey, I don't believe this religious mubo-jumbo", they said "does she fit the prophecy". Your argument is pretty weak when compared to the actual actions we have seen taken by people on the show.

The Quorum are as desperate as the rest of humanity. It is easy to convince people of fallacies when they are under such distress.

Of course, they don't seem to think it is a fallacy. Just because you don't believe them doesn't mean that the Quorum or the populace at large doesn't. Thus far, there is no evidence that the majority won't believe her. No one who doesn't have something to gain from ignoring her has questioned the validity of her visions. In point of fact, the only people who have seriously questioned the validity of her visions have been Adama, Tigh, and Helen. Even Zarek (thus far) seems to be going along with them.

Really tell me which visions were ever correct?

Her vision of the captured cylon dying. Her identification of the new planet they found as Kobol. Her vision of the opera house. Should I continue?

Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.

Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk.

In which case the military would be abandoning those they swore oaths to protect, as well as abandoning their wives, husbands, children, parents, and siblings. I think you need to rethink Galactica's position before you make yourself look sillier than you already do.

 

[Storm Raven]

No. If Dc would get nuked today, the jarheads would still be here and most would follow orders of their commanders. Those like Apollo would either be shot right away (like a cowardly female in last week episode) or in the brig. Apollo is in the brig and the only reason the female did not get shot was in was not in the story line.

No, you are not understanding the point. If DC got nuked today, the UCMJ would still be in force, because the last lawful orders given by the civilian government would validate the UCMJ. However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.

If the Joint Chiefs of Staff decided to depose the President, then they would forfeit their authority under the UCMJ. In point of fact, they would become criminals, and any soldier would be perfectly free to ignore their orders and do whatever he wanted. They would have no legal right to command anyone at that point, since the military hierarchy would have no legitimacy.

 

[WizarDru]

However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.

I think this point is the stickler for some folks. Adama clearly respects the law and the government (and I don't think he makes a distinction as a 'civilian' government, per se...it's HIS government). The issue came down to this: Adama has the actual power with the threat of violence; Roslin has the power through the legal system and the expectation that 'those rough men' are members of that society and value that system. It's clear and obvious that Adama COULD sieze power without any trouble...the issue is why he would want to, short of being a brutal dictator sitting over the last vestiges of mankind.

That is to say: Adama/Tigh can rule through the use of force, and "win", in as much as they posses all the weapons, training and leverage. BUT, the populace empowers that military, and should they sieze power by force, they surrender all legitimacy, effectively betraying the trust of the society that empowered them and provided the infrastructure that allowed that military to be assembled in the first place. Zarek has a history of fighting that same power (and I think comparisons to Sein Fenn are intentional with him), and is an illustration of what that could bring.

Further, the assumption is that said leader would have the stomach to perform the violence necessary to enforce a Junta. Next episode, we clearly see that Tigh is going to have use force against peaceful resistance, and is likely to make a bad thing worse. How can you protect a fleet that fears you nearly as much as the enemy you're protecting them from? Adama will have a real challenge ahead of him, when he regains consciousness.



Side note: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion civil. I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, but ad hominem attacks do not become us.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

History has never showed us what it is like to be the last few remaining humans left. While a giant cylon fleet is trying to constantly kill them. So using history and comparing it to an event that has never happened in history is pointless.

This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive. You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide. I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.

 

[WizarDru]

This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive.

One man's quaint relic is another man's basis for society and only comfort in a very desperate situation. Let's not forget, Tom Zarek is a revolutionary who represented an oppressed group on Sagittaron - he'd rather have a government of civilians than the military any day. Killed by the cylons or killed by an oppresive military regime...dead is dead. The military is not the be-all end-all; let's not forget that Adama's first reaction during the miniseries was..."Let's get back in the fight!". It was the civilian leader who demanded they protect the survivors, instead of abandon them. Mankind is only still alive because of her direct actions, as far as the survivors know. Ceding full control the military may strike many as pure folly, since they're still mired in THEIR quaint relics of tradition and protocol; some of that serves them, and some doesn't. It makes perfect sense to me that some folks would fight tooth and nail to retain their previous form of government. Hell, Adama himself validated the president, and even gave her powerful ammunition to use against him with the knowledge that he LIED TO EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR. He only disagrees on when she should have superior authority on specific decisions; in his mind, she overstepped her authority on a military matter; something he considers her dangerously uninformed on and made clear that he believes he understands much better than she does how to survive.

 

[Storm Raven]

This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive. You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide. I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.

Actually, I would think that under such circumstances people would cling to honored traditions in an effort to preserve as much "normality" as possible. Society might transform over time in response to the ongoing pressures, but in our history many people have stubbornly clung to "quaint relics" in the face of massive and unpleasant changes,

 

[Fast Learner]

Side note: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion civil. I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, but ad hominem attacks do not become us.

Yeah, it's funny, all that inflammatory stuff I deleted from my post was said by others, anyway. :/