Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[Safana Cain]

Some confusions that need to be cleared up: democracy is not synonomous with bureaucracy. In fact, in the history of political philosophy, they are often considered opposites. Democracy is the process of deliberation among a society's components. Bureaucracy is a rigid hierarchical structure which collects and monopolizes information to a central figure and then dispenses direction. In a democracy like the Colonials, which mimics are own debased notions of democracy, it is a representative democracy which combines the two in favor of bureaucracy. Furthermore, the military itself is an extremely bureaucratic entity. Bureaucracies have the tendency towards "informational entropy," as information travels up the chain of command. As for example, the Galactica jumping to the coordinates without the fleet. So the idea of martial law being a panacea for humanity's situation is magical thinking at best. Though I can see the extermination of the species being a situation in which martial law is declared. However, we have not been given any sign of what life is like on the civilian ships.

Tom Zarek is right in the end. Society is just continuing as if things weren't any different, while the fleet needs to put every available resource into improving their situation.

 

[WizarDru]

The show is all about appearances and reasonable doubt.

Is Gaius crazy or being influenced? How can we be sure?
Is Ellen working with Zarek, a cylon or just a selfish barfly?
Is the Prez having delusions, experiencing truth or a combination of the two?
Is one of the Adamas a cylon? If so, which one?
Is Gaeta a cylon? Did he intentionally make a mistake in episode 2.1?
Do the cylons really have a plan, and if so, what is it?
Are the cylons of one mind, or are there factions?
WHY did the cylons make so many copies of mankind, especially when there are so few humans left?

The president's state of mind is an example: the show is very, very careful to tread a line. We can't say for sure that she's having hallucinations from the drugs, the withdrawl or something else entirely. Note where she got the latest batch from: Geminon ceremonial rights. It's most likely the same kind of material taken by oracles of their faith. Many of the worlds shamans were known to take primitive psychotropics to induce visions...is this a case of that? Do the visions bear any truth? Is it all coincidence? Could it just be simple stress? Is this part of the cylons plan? People seem suprised that the quorom might be so ready to accept the Prez as a prophet. I'm not. Less than 50,000 members of mankind remains, afawk. Billions of lives were snuffed out, nearly instantaneously. A prophet is supposed to appear in mankinds darkest hour....could it be any darker outside than it is now? Keep in mind that these 50,000- have been on the run and under heavy stress for months, now. Deeply religious people accepting that their faith foretold the end-times is hardly unknown, in real life or in fiction.

I think we're going to see some people accept the president, others reject her as a prophet but look to her (and IMHO, eventually Baltar) as a way to defy the military...and some who won't accept her, either way. They cylons clearly have a script they're running; as long as mankind goes north instead of south, they get to live. But WHY? That's the question.

 

[ecliptic]

Funny, nobody in the fleet, not even Adama has argued this. Even if the colonies are not accessable as physical entities, they still exist as political ones, with individual Colonists carrying strong nationalistic identities to those Colonies. Governments in exile exist all the time in the real world, and the Colonial government of the fleet is easily a Government in exile. By the same token, if the government is void, so is Adama's commission to act as an officer of that government, giving him no authority over his Battlestar.

I am not Adama am i? Military law is technically completely different. The great thing about the military is the fact that they listen to their commander no matter what and they are absolutely essential to the survival of the human race.

No, I'm not. Have you ever studied what happens when a military decides it knows better than the civilian government and decides to use force to back that assertion up? That pretty much never goes well. Every time it's backed by people who say that the civilian governement is corrupt, or traitorous, or hindering the war effort, and every time it's lead by people who think they know what they are doing, but they are too greedy for power or short sighted upon the military situation that they lose control of the larger picture. Human history is littered with military tyrants who pushed aside the legitimate government because it was inconvenient to them, and it never rules wisely. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

History is also filled with examples of a corrupt government being shattered through military might. For as many corrupt leaders there have been as many praised leaders. Plus human history has never shown us what its like to be backed in such a corner is they are in BSG.

That strike apparently wasn't very crucial to the survival of humanity, the fleet survived without it. Furthermore, the only reason those resources were under his command is she permitted them to be that way. She was in charge, and delegated the military command to him. As the President she made an executive decision that finding the location of Earth was more a important use of the captured Cylon raider than Adama's planned use of it as a trojan horse. Adama objected, and being unable to deal with it like a professional military officer he decided to lead a coup.

You mean they fell back on plan B that only succeeded because the cylons let it succeed? There is no such thing as a military executive decision. This isn't an American Republic and the President is not the leader of the armed forces.

Alleged delusions. One persons prophet is quite literally another persons madman. Kinda the point of all of this.

Makes me wonder if you would believe one of our President's if he said God told him to invade Britain.

Y'know, I've been trying to avoid explicit references to real-world politics because this forum kinda frowns on things like that. Suffice it to say, there are people of all major religions in the world, on all sides of major geopolitical affiliations who let religion be their primary source of decision making instead of science, and they are quite frequently elected to power democratically.

You need to really see the difference between letting the teachings of a religion guide you and letting delusions guide you.

If a President in America was declaring they are having visions from God telling them which countries to attack, they would quickly be removed from power.

I don't think that the visions are cylon induced. I think that we'd have had some indication of close contact with cylons, thus giving the opportunity to do so, and we haven't seen it. Note that her visions started before she was face to face with the out-the-airlock-cylon. I guess she could have been affected by Boomer, or possibly by the cylons pre-attack (ie, they affected many in gubbermint in the off chance that it'd pay off), but I'm just not seeing it.

Something like this would only crop up when cylons decided to broadcast the signal.

 

[Storm Raven]

I am not Adama am i? Military law is technically completely different. The great thing about the military is the fact that they listen to their commander no matter what and they are absolutely essential to the survival of the human race.

And yet, Adama has no actual authority without the rule of law. Overthrowing the rule of law nullifies any basis that anyone has for "listening to him". So it isn't really "they listen to their commander no matter what" is it?

This isn't an American Republic and the President is not the leader of the armed forces.

You know of governments where the chief executive cannot give orders to the military?

If a President in America was declaring they are having visions from God telling them which countries to attack, they would quickly be removed from power.

Of course, the United States isn't unified by a single religion, and we doesn't have a universal tradition of waiting for a prophet to guide humanity through danger to reunite humans with the Lords of Kobol. The colonists do. You might note that the Quorum of Twelve took Roslin's visions pretty seriously. More to the point, thus far, Roslin's visions have been correct. It is hard to argue with success.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

By the way: Adama might have the right to lead the Galactica and the military - but he has no authority about the civilian ships. At least he wouldn´t if he was a military leader in a typical modern society.
The local military base has no more right to tell the private citizen what to do than any other citizen (at least as long as it doens´t concern military property). A soldier can´t go out and take someone´s car because he needs it for a military operation, unless the government has authorized him so (and even that would have to fall under very specific rules and laws, since most societies allow and enforce personal ownership)

So, Adama (and Tigh) don´t have any legal control about the fleet except the Galactica and its fighters.

 

[jasper]

I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum. ..
However Zarek hates the military more than he does the prez. So he may just be going along to get rid of one big enemy , so he can get back to his normal hunting ground.

 

[WizarDru]

I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum. ..
However Zarek hates the military more than he does the prez. So he may just be going along to get rid of one big enemy , so he can get back to his normal hunting ground.

Skeptical of what? The President's claim of prophecy? We don't really know one way or the other. We know a few of them are clearly convinced and were most likely ready to believe. Let's remember, the situation plays heavily towards the prophecy. As for the rest, we have no idea what level of skepticism they DO have. They didn't all fawn over her and kneel and pray. It's a reality of the show that we don't have time to meet most of the quorom as characters; for that matter, we don't know if Zarek accepts or rejects the president's claim. We know him to be a political animal, though, so he'll use the situation, no matter what his belief.

I suspect that we'll see some skepticism and arguments next episode...but Tigh's pushed the quorom into a corner...and a cornered animal is the most dangerous kind.

 

[ecliptic]

And yet, Adama has no actual authority without the rule of law. Overthrowing the rule of law nullifies any basis that anyone has for "listening to him". So it isn't really "they listen to their commander no matter what" is it?

You obviously know nothing about military command.

You know of governments where the chief executive cannot give orders to the military?

One that seperates civilian and military government.

Of course, the United States isn't unified by a single religion, and we doesn't have a universal tradition of waiting for a prophet to guide humanity through danger to reunite humans with the Lords of Kobol. The colonists do. You might note that the Quorum of Twelve took Roslin's visions pretty seriously. More to the point, thus far, Roslin's visions have been correct. It is hard to argue with success.

Yet there are many of the colonists who do not believe in the Lords. Their government isn't unified by a religion either. The majority do not control the government.

The Quorum are as desperate as the rest of humanity. It is easy to convince people of fallacies when they are under such distress.

Really tell me which visions were ever correct?

By the way: Adama might have the right to lead the Galactica and the military - but he has no authority about the civilian ships. At least he wouldn´t if he was a military leader in a typical modern society.
The local military base has no more right to tell the private citizen what to do than any other citizen (at least as long as it doens´t concern military property). A soldier can´t go out and take someone´s car because he needs it for a military operation, unless the government has authorized him so (and even that would have to fall under very specific rules and laws, since most societies allow and enforce personal ownership)

So, Adama (and Tigh) don´t have any legal control about the fleet except the Galactica and its fighters.

Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.

I suspect that we'll see some skepticism and arguments next episode...but Tigh's pushed the quorom into a corner...and a cornered animal is the most dangerous kind.

Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Really tell me which visions were ever correct?

The visions of the Cylon flying out the airlock.

The vision identifying the planet as Kobol.

It should also be mentioned that Roslyn did NOT read the scrolls prior to her visions, which is why her seeing the 12 snakes on the podium surprised the woman who was the expert on it. She has admitted to reading them SINCE then, but these visions are definitely something more than just halucinations.

 

[Fast Learner]

You obviously know nothing about military command.

It seems to me, anyway, that you obviously know nothing about how society actually functions, if you believe that military commanders don't receive their authority through the rule of law.

One that seperates civilian and military government.

No, an actual example. An example of a government on Earth where the executive leader isn't the commander in chief of the miliatary, too.

Which then the Galactica could leave the civilian populace undefended. It would be smart to listen to the military.

Which would make the whole thing pointless, with the remaining 90% of the human population wiped out.

Whatever the civilian ships do, it will be at their own risk.

The same is true of the military, running the risk of bullheadedness and needless macho posturing wiping out humanity. There's something to be proud of.