Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[ecliptic]

It scares me how easily people are willing to suggest succumbing to martial law. Does history teach us nothing?

How easily? History has never taught us what we should do at the brink of extinction. This is a unique situation under unique circumstances.
Human race is struggling to survive and one mistake could end humanity as a whole.

On the one hand Galactica is a military vessel, on the other hand the Human systems were at peace until the sneak attack. Colonel Tigh was about to be retired along with Adama and the Galactica. Likewise, the President's previous experience was as a school teacher appointed Secretary of Education.

There is no reason to keep Adama and President Rosalind in charge in the wake of an apocalpytic event, except for inertia and continuity.

Adama still has rank and thus he is the leader of the military.

Not that much. When people are scared, they run to what promises to remove the fear. They don't want freedom, they don't want liberty, they want safety. Sad, very sad, but that's what happens when you let fear rule your life.

I say it is pointless to have freedom if you cannot live to use it.


People want liberty but they want to survive first. This is beyond fear when you are part of a few thousand that used to be billions. Asking for bureaucracy in such a situation is asking for death. Where one mistake will cause the extinction of your entire race.

 

[wingsandsword]

Asking for bureaucracy in such a situation is asking for death. Where one mistake will cause the extinction of your entire race.

Calling the legitimately elected, lawful goverment just "bureaucracy" is scary, that somebody could honestly think that. They've had meetings of a civilian government, elected and convened a legislature, even had races and elected a new vice president. Adama had no problem with having a civilian government until it became inconvenient to him.

They have had no problems until Adama decided that he was more important than his civilian command authority and decided to lead a squad of goons over to stage a coup d'etat, betting that they were more loyal to him personally than the rightful rule of law. Sadly, that was the case so far except for his own son, one of the few actual honorable Colonial soldiers we've seen. Even if they were just deposing Roslin as unfit, legally Baltar would become the President since he's the VP, and although he's on Kobol, it would be acknowleged that he would take the position upon being found (assuming there was no further chain of succession), instead of Adama (and Tigh) being in sole command.

 

[ecliptic]

Calling the legitimately elected, lawful goverment just "bureaucracy" is scary, that somebody could honestly think that.

What else would you call it? That type of government is needed when there are billions of people. There aren't even 50,000 now. Exactly what is the point of such a government that can't be handled by a smaller trimmer government?

Adama had no problem with having a civilian government until it became inconvenient to him.

Inconvient to him to do his job of keeping the human race alive.

They have had no problems until Adama decided that he was more important than his civilian command authority and decided to lead a squad of goons over to stage a coup d'etat, betting that they were more loyal to him personally than the rightful rule of law. Sadly, that was the case so far except for his own son, one of the few actual honorable Colonial soldiers we've seen. Even if they were just deposing Roslin as unfit, legally Baltar would become the President since he's the VP, and although he's on Kobol, it would be acknowleged that he would take the position upon being found (assuming there was no further chain of succession), instead of Adama (and Tigh) being in sole command.

He decided he was more important? Roslin decided her delusions were more important than the grounded in reality tasks at hand. Roslin risked the entire human race for these delusions.

 

[wingsandsword]

What else would you call it? That type of government is needed when there are billions of people. There aren't even 50,000 now. Exactly what is the point of such a government that can't be handled by a smaller trimmer government?

Actually, the legitimate Colonial government is quite small, and about the size of a small town government (like a city of 47,000 might have, if not smaller). It has a President, Vice President, and the Quorum of Twelve. There are some civil servants, but they are not decision makers, and implement the decisions of those above them. That's the core of the government, 14 elected positions: a leader, deputy leader, and a ruling council of a dozen elected represenatives. In any city of 50,000 you'll find a similar sized (or larger) government. It's already been established in episodes like Colonial Day that it is the civilian government which has been responsible for much of the day-to-day living in the fleet, like water and food distribution. Try doing all that with just one person ruling by martial law without any "bureaucracy" while also managing fleet defense.

Inconvient to him to do his job of keeping the human race alive.

No, it was inconvenient when his superior had alternate priorities. Adama based his entire leadership of the fleet on a huge lie, that he knew where Earth was. Roslin realized that there was one way for the fleet to actually find the location of Earth from what was left on Kobol, but it required resources Adama had claimed for himself. Without Roslin's initiative, Galactica might wander the stars forever. Roslin was looking out for the long term, Adama was being myopic wanting to waste their opportunity on a military strike. This is why in any legiitmate government the military is accountable to a civilian command structure, to keep perspective on people who only look at things from a combative perspective.

He decided he was more important? Roslin decided her delusions were more important than the grounded in reality tasks at hand. Roslin risked the entire human race for these delusions.

You might question her leadership, but her leadership was upheld during the Colonial Day which created the Civilian government. The rest of the Quorum of Twelve seemed to think that she was a true prophet they heard about her condition. It's easy to sit back and say it's all delusions and hallucinations in your easy chair on Earth in the here & now. Think of it from a Colonial perspective: their entire civilization was united by one religion, with a clear set of fairly unambiguous apocalyptic prophecies. The current President appears to fulfil the exact terms of this prophecy, and has an opportunity to literally lead them to the Promised Land, although it means crossing their military head. It's not unrealistic for people to believe that, or for leaders to remain in power on a lot flimsier religious declarations. Wars have been declared, invasions launched, and other sweeping actions undertaken in the modern day, real world based strictly on a leader believing that they had a vision/contact/message from above telling them so.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How easily? History has never taught us what we should do at the brink of extinction. This is a unique situation under unique circumstances.
Human race is struggling to survive and one mistake could end humanity as a whole.



Adama still has rank and thus he is the leader of the military.

Well, Adama was never the leader of the Colonial military before - he took this position based on the same laws and rules that say that Roslin is the rightful president of the 12 Colonies (or their remains).

Apollo said something to that matter (it was in Bastille Day):
"The articles say there is election coming in 6 months. If you´re telling me we´re throwing out the law, then you I am not a captain, you are not the commander, you are not the president, and I don´t owe either of you an explaination"

 

[ecliptic]

Actually, the legitimate Colonial government is quite small, and about the size of a small town government (like a city of 47,000 might have, if not smaller). It has a President, Vice President, and the Quorum of Twelve. There are some civil servants, but they are not decision makers, and implement the decisions of those above them. That's the core of the government, 14 elected positions: a leader, deputy leader, and a ruling council of a dozen elected represenatives. In any city of 50,000 you'll find a similar sized (or larger) government. It's already been established in episodes like Colonial Day that it is the civilian government which has been responsible for much of the day-to-day living in the fleet, like water and food distribution. Try doing all that with just one person ruling by martial law without any "bureaucracy" while also managing fleet defense.

The entire government is based around 12 colonies. There are not 12 colonies anymore. There are a few ships alone in the universe. You are also forgetting the thousands of minor elected local official below them. The Twelve are there to represent each colony. None of those colonies exist anymore. Who are they representing exactly because I am sure somewhere in their political doctrine they mention "colony" and "colonies" as well as specific colonies. None of those colonies exist so it makes the doctrines giving each of the colonies a voice null and void.

No, it was inconvenient when his superior had alternate priorities. Adama based his entire leadership of the fleet on a huge lie, that he knew where Earth was. Roslin realized that there was one way for the fleet to actually find the location of Earth from what was left on Kobol, but it required resources Adama had claimed for himself. Without Roslin's initiative, Galactica might wander the stars forever. Roslin was looking out for the long term, Adama was being myopic wanting to waste their opportunity on a military strike. This is why in any legiitmate government the military is accountable to a civilian command structure, to keep perspective on people who only look at things from a combative perspective.

Your joking right? Adama's leadership is based on military structure. His knowledge of where a planet is or not has absolutely nothing to do with his command. He does what every leader in his position does, he gives his people strength to keep fighting for survival.

It required military resources that were under his command. She went beyond his command and side swiped a military officer with bad news and took advantage of her emotional distress. Roslin was only looking out through the colored glasses of delusional mental breakdown.
Waste their opprotunity on a military strike? You mean the military strike that was crucial for the survival of humanity. She put everything on the line right there.

The differences between Adama and Roslin are apparent. Adama uses religion and obviously untruths to bolster the morale. Roslin uses religion and deceit to manipulate others into a course of action she believes is right based on delusions.

You might question her leadership, but her leadership was upheld during the Colonial Day which created the Civilian government. The rest of the Quorum of Twelve seemed to think that she was a true prophet they heard about her condition. It's easy to sit back and say it's all delusions and hallucinations in your easy chair on Earth in the here & now. Think of it from a Colonial perspective: their entire civilization was united by one religion, with a clear set of fairly unambiguous apocalyptic prophecies. The current President appears to fulfil the exact terms of this prophecy, and has an opportunity to literally lead them to the Promised Land, although it means crossing their military head. It's not unrealistic for people to believe that, or for leaders to remain in power on a lot flimsier religious declarations.

Think of it in logical perspective. When a human being is in such dire distress they will believe anything that will make them feel secure. Even if the feeling of security is misplaced. They will grab and hold onto the the illogical and force themselves to see it as logical. The fact that the 12 believe her is only detrimental to my view of their ability to lead in such a situation.

Wars have been declared, invasions launched, and other sweeping actions undertaken in the modern day, real world based strictly on a leader believing that they had a vision/contact/message from above telling them so.

Because we all know Osama Bin Laden is very religious.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I haven't had a chance to see a lot of BSG, unfortunately. But I did see the scene where the President saw the Twelve in her jail cell, and claimed to be the prophecied leader, because she's dying.

It occurred to me that Adama is also dying at the moment. Is it possible that Adama is the leader prophecied to guide the remnants of humanity to their goal, rather than the President? Or has this possibility already been disproven?

 

[wingsandsword]

It occurred to me that Adama is also dying at the moment. Is it possible that Adama is the leader prophecied to guide the remnants of humanity to their goal, rather than the President? Or has this possibility already been disproven?

Pretty thoroughly disproven. It's a lot more specific than just dying. Specifically it was that they were slowly dying of a wasting disease, which fighting breast cancer is a lot closer to than internal bleeding after a gunshot wound.

The idea of her being a prophet first came in the episode The Hand of God, when she had a vision during a press conference (skeptics such as ecliptic call it a delusion) of two snakes on her podium, then ten more. Adama has had no visions at all.

"And the Lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland. And unto the leader, they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come."

Then in the second passage it tells of a battle where the Colonials are soon thereafter lead by "serpents two and ten" to victory over their foes in an initial battle of a larger war. Right after her vision, an initial strike on a Cylon base is lead by a dozen Vipers in the first military victory over the Cylons since the loss of the colonies.

 

[wingsandsword]

The entire government is based around 12 colonies. There are not 12 colonies anymore. There are a few ships alone in the universe. You are also forgetting the thousands of minor elected local official below them. The Twelve are there to represent each colony. None of those colonies exist anymore. Who are they representing exactly because I am sure somewhere in their political doctrine they mention "colony" and "colonies" as well as specific colonies. None of those colonies exist so it makes the doctrines giving each of the colonies a voice null and void.

Funny, nobody in the fleet, not even Adama has argued this. Even if the colonies are not accessable as physical entities, they still exist as political ones, with individual Colonists carrying strong nationalistic identities to those Colonies. Governments in exile exist all the time in the real world, and the Colonial government of the fleet is easily a Government in exile. By the same token, if the government is void, so is Adama's commission to act as an officer of that government, giving him no authority over his Battlestar.

Your joking right?

No, I'm not. Have you ever studied what happens when a military decides it knows better than the civilian government and decides to use force to back that assertion up? That pretty much never goes well. Every time it's backed by people who say that the civilian governement is corrupt, or traitorous, or hindering the war effort, and every time it's lead by people who think they know what they are doing, but they are too greedy for power or short sighted upon the military situation that they lose control of the larger picture. Human history is littered with military tyrants who pushed aside the legitimate government because it was inconvenient to them, and it never rules wisely. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It required military resources that were under his command. She went beyond his command and side swiped a military officer with bad news and took advantage of her emotional distress. Roslin was only looking out through the colored glasses of delusional mental breakdown.
Waste their opprotunity on a military strike? You mean the military strike that was crucial for the survival of humanity.

That strike apparently wasn't very crucial to the survival of humanity, the fleet survived without it. Furthermore, the only reason those resources were under his command is she permitted them to be that way. She was in charge, and delegated the military command to him. As the President she made an executive decision that finding the location of Earth was more a important use of the captured Cylon raider than Adama's planned use of it as a trojan horse. Adama objected, and being unable to deal with it like a professional military officer he decided to lead a coup.

Roslin uses religion and deceit to manipulate others into a course of action she believes is right based on delusions.

Alleged delusions. One persons prophet is quite literally another persons madman. Kinda the point of all of this.

Because we all know Osama Bin Laden is very religious.

Y'know, I've been trying to avoid explicit references to real-world politics because this forum kinda frowns on things like that. Suffice it to say, there are people of all major religions in the world, on all sides of major geopolitical affiliations who let religion be their primary source of decision making instead of science, and they are quite frequently elected to power democratically.

 

[jasper]

Excuse me thousands of minor elected local official below them ??? What type of government need this many pencil pushers for a nation of 50K. Montgomery Al is city of 200k with 10 people on town council to include the mayor. Even if you add in the county you only get about 12 more people elected. Are the 12 colonies electing daggit catchers for each ship???
The president was wrong for not using the chain of command to get the arrow by sending the capture ship
Adama was wrong for declaring martial law and should be shot. By his side.
However since we don’t what is the exact chain of command in the colonies we can not say who had the highest legal power to order Starbuck on the mission. Can the president order Pvt Pyle to take that hill? Or does she have to order the Adama to take that hill?

There are 12 colonies because the survivors of colonies voted in the council of twelve. So who cares if Gemini has the largest population of survivors.