Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Not that much. When people are scared, they run to what promises to remove the fear. They don't want freedom, they don't want liberty, they want safety. Sad, very sad, but that's what happens when you let fear rule your life.

I say it is pointless to have freedom if you cannot live to use it.


People want liberty but they want to survive first. This is beyond fear when you are part of a few thousand that used to be billions. Asking for bureaucracy in such a situation is asking for death. Where one mistake will cause the extinction of your entire race.

Um...I never said that. In fact, that doesn't even look like how I write. Where'd you pull that from?!

 

[dravot]

Several points for the conversation:

She's having hallucinations/visions, not delusions. She may be having delusions of grandeur, but they're caused by the hallucinations.

In real life, I'd agree with you that Kicking Bird is experiencing hallucinations and therefore delusions of her place in things, but in this fictional story, I'm willing to explore the notion that the hallucinations could be truthful and are marking her as the true prophet for this cycle of human history. Why? Because it's fiction.

As for the gubbermint, the Quorum is what they know, and as someone else pointed out, the 12 Colonies may no longer exist per se, they are still useful as forms of self-identity and political relations. There's no way that they'd just trash hundreds of years (or however long) of history and tradition overnight. In the long term, I could see that happening, and people would re-align under other, more useful delineations, but that's going to take some time to develop.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

She's having hallucinations/visions, not delusions. She may be having delusions of grandeur, but they're caused by the hallucinations.

There are a lot of potential reasons for her delusions/visions, and in a desperate attempt to keep this thread from getting closed for getting too political, I'll list them:

1. The visions are legit, she is a prophet.
2. The visions are happening, but they are implanted somehow by the cylons. We know they can do it - look at Baltar.
3. She's having side effects from the drugs, and they are playing on the religious imagery of her culture. Once the idea that they might be visions as opposed to hallucinations, they would tend to become self-sustaining.

Any other ideas as to possible explanations?

 

[Endur]

As much as I hate to say it, I think it will turn out that the Cylons are giving her the visions. The cylons are religious and are deliberately losing battles for unknown reasons.

 

[dravot]

I don't think that the visions are cylon induced. I think that we'd have had some indication of close contact with cylons, thus giving the opportunity to do so, and we haven't seen it. Note that her visions started before she was face to face with the out-the-airlock-cylon. I guess she could have been affected by Boomer, or possibly by the cylons pre-attack (ie, they affected many in gubbermint in the off chance that it'd pay off), but I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Any other ideas as to possible explanations?

The visions may be caused by the drugs, but that doesn't mean that she is not the prophet. The prophecy says that a dying leader with be the salvation of humanity - the drug that *causes* the vision could well be what causes the visions that fulfill the prophecy. The touch of the divine may well be the fact that she is taking that drug instead of some other treatment...

 

[Sir Brennen]

3. She's having side effects from the drugs, and they are playing on the religious imagery of her culture. Once the idea that they might be visions as opposed to hallucinations, they would tend to become self-sustaining.

Any other ideas as to possible explanations?

Yes, the Prez is experiencing a very literal translation of the prophecy. As you point out, she's seeing snakes possibly because the scriptures say she's suppose to see snakes.

However, what if not all the prophecy is quite so literal? I think it was mentioned in another thread about those little fighter ships they fly around in... what do you call them? Oh, yeah... vipers... are in Adama's prevue... and he is (was) indeed dieing, so I think there's plenty of wiggle room to assume he might be the actual prophet.

It would be very interesting indeed if the actual prophecy is being played out on a metaphorical level with Adama at the center, while a literal, false version is being only superficially fulfilled by the prez (either because of her hallucinations or cylons beaming stuff into her head.)

I wondering how the Arrow of Apollo will fit into pointing the way to Earth. Will it have a microchip that activates a computer in the Temple of Athena? Or will it be a symbol which the civilian survivors rally around (believing again in its literal truth?) and the pointing the way to Earth is fulfilled in a way that's not really recognized for what it is (like Six providing Baltar with some clue). I mean, you ever noticed how, when the landing bays are pulled in, that Galactica kinda looks like an arrow?

 

[Storm Raven]

Your joking right? Adama's leadership is based on military structure.

Which only has legitimate authority as a result of the operation of law. Subverting the law by staging a military coup undermines his authority, and eliminates any argument he may have for moral superiority. The only thing he has left to fall back on as a justification for his leadership at this point is the lie.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

However, what if not all the prophecy is quite so literal? I think it was mentioned in another thread about those little fighter ships they fly around in... what do you call them? Oh, yeah... vipers... are in Adama's prevue... and he is (was) indeed dieing, so I think there's plenty of wiggle room to assume he might be the actual prophet.

Very interesting. The producers have mentioned that they are specifically tracking the number of Vipers in order to make sure they're consistent from episode to episode - what if they have another motive in keeping track? The priestess indicated that it was the specific number of vipers that was relevant - how many did she say?

 

[MaxKaladin]

Without getting into forbidden territory for these forums, I suspect we can discuss Roslin's visions/hallucinations until we're blue in the face because our opinion ultimately depends on our feelings about religion in real life because the show seems so "real" and because the colonials are presented as being so similar to us.

Some thoughts about the "visions":

The visions/hallucinations did not occur until the president got onto the drugs and, as I recall, they had to go out into the fleet to find a supply of the drug because it was not something typically carried by the Galactica. This seems to offer a vector for the cylons to have introduced something to Roslin's body. Some of the drug gathered from the fleet could have been provided by a cylon agent who tantied it with nanites or whatever the cylons use to introduce visions in people like Baltar.

Roslin's visions were not terribly specific prior to her conversations with the religious leader (Elosha, IIRC). It is possible that these conversations helped "guide" her hallucinations.

I am most disappointed that there does not appear to be at least one skeptic besides Zarek (who is skeptical of anything that might interfere with his quest for power) on the Quorum.

We do not know what Adama had planned as he was shot before he could act any further than removing the president. He may well have intended to convene the Quorum and ask them to elect a replacement for Roslin until Baltar's fate is known.

If Tigh and Adama are deposed in favor of a civilian government, it would seem logical that Starbuck and Apollo would probably be in line for command positions because they have proven themselves loyal to the President over Adama.

Finally, I would point out that the original Galactica also had its prophet who had a lot of believers in the fleet -- Count Iblis. He, as I recall, turned out to be most emphatically NOT a nice, er, being. I submit that if someone IS really giving Roslin actual "visions" (which I doubt) then there is no guarantee that she is actually being given them by the gods the colonials worship. Given how Six is talking about Kobol, I wonder if there isn't something bad there that hasn't been reaching out to Roslin now that she's close (compared to being in the colonies).