BattleStar Galactica:Season 3.0--11/10/06--Arc 6

[Kobold Avenger]

The thing to do would be to use the virus, and then hang the vacination in front of the last 40,000 cylons in existence as a bargaining tool...

Even though the cylons were rather short sighted over the fact that they had the cure (Hera) with them all this time.

 

[shilsen]

That is the most foolish statement I have heard in a long time.

I aim to please

Foolish (which, of course, is just your opinion) or not, I'm also apparently correct about others saying the same thing.

From my perspective you had about 20 of them in the last several posts that were way, way more foolish. Of course, I'm not sure that calling other people's opinions "foolish" will help the conversation any, but I guess it's worth pointing out.

I'm another of those people, btw. Neither I nor my species is inherently more deserving of survival than any other.

Thanks for the backup.

Comments like Storm Raven's don't bother me, since I figure that getting upset about the opinion of some random stranger on the Net would be really ... to use Storm Raven's term ... foolish.

 

[DonTadow]

Interesting that the crew and us are believing that this is a moral dilimma. I don't see this as genocide. This is essentially the same as recalling a few million Ford 150s because of a bad part. I still see the Cylons as torturous malfunctioning machines. Helo should be courtmarshalled for treason in my book. A bunch of machines are chasing yo uto space and they dont stop until they kill you. You kill them and they are just re downloaded somewhere else. Not to mention many more are still being manufactured. I think this episode shows that the people whom were in space really do not understand the true suffering of people on New Caprica.

 

[DonTadow]

That's why I don't like this episode. Either your answer is yes, or your answer is no. There is no "it depends". It's trying to raise moral questions, but it doesn't work - just read the thread, almost no one here is indecisive. It especially doesn't work as a premise because the Cylons are not sympathtic at all. If we had met more than one nice Cylon, it might be, but that's not the scenario they've set up.

Completely disagreed. If you didnt find tension in this episode you weren't thinking hard enough. And am I wrong in thinking that Boomer 2.0 is that nice Cylon? Is this not the most tension feeled thread about BSG in a long time. This is the kinda of water cooler episode the show needed after occupation.

COnsidering my last message, I'll consider the genocide thing hypothetically. I think a lot of us are coming from different directions. For those of us who have children, saving them can sometimes be the most important thing in the world, its near biological. When I"m talking about my children, hcildrens children and my families future existance, if i had away to wipe out that threat I would. The instict to survive is far greater than whatever moral dilemmas we put on ourselves.

 

[Storm Raven]

So you're saying that every virus that anyone in humanity has ever been exposed to is being carried around by all humans? Where did you get that idea?

If a strain of the common cold is a deadly killer to cylons, then they are dead on arrival. We carry dozens of significantly more deadly viruses around without knowing it. We are surrounded by dozens of deadly viruses in our every day environment. We have just built up immunities to them. Apparently, the cylons have not.

 

[Storm Raven]

From my perspective you had about 20 of them in the last several posts that were way, way more foolish. Of course, I'm not sure that calling other people's opinions "foolish" will help the conversation any, but I guess it's worth pointing out.

I'm another of those people, btw. Neither I nor my species is inherently more deserving of survival than any other.

The foolishness is in the sentiment. Because you join in such foolishness doesn't make it any more sensible. The first goal is survival. After that, other considerations come into play. If you don't have a survival impetus, even one that you are ignoring for some purpose, then you are behaving foolishly.

Of course, the cylons aren't a species. They are malfunctioning machines. Your premise falls apart at that point. Humans are more inherently deserving of survival than machines. No matter how sophisitcated those machines may appear to be.

Of course, humans are more inherently deserving of survival than other species as well, but that is a different argument. I favor humans. No bones about it. No questions asked.

 

[Storm Raven]

They could have used the whole virus differently, too.

Imagine if they had broadcasted to the Cylons that they had found a deadly virus that could exterminate the Cylon race but decided _not_ to use it because genocide is morally wrong, imagine the discussions that would have come up among the Cylons. Sure, some would call it a bluff (believing the virus doesn't really work as effective as they first assumed), but it would have caused doubts in many of them. We already saw what happened when only 2 Cylons (Caprica-Six and Boomer) showed doubt that the Cylons plan and attempted genocide was right.

This again points out that the human-cylon relationship could be changed, that it's not either them or us, but there is a third alternative, having the sides cooperate.

Or, more likely (given the way that the cylons have behaved to date), they would regard humans and their environment as disease spewing cesspools that must be exterminated to the last man, woman, or child in order to protect themselves. The cylons clearly don't believe genocide is wrong, it seems unlikely they would want to negotiate before they tried to solve the problem with the application of a couple hundred more nuclear weapons.

 

[Falkus]

Call it wrong, call it evil..call it whatever you want. I call it necessary for the survival of the species. Against this, no argument or resort to ethics is of much consequence.

If humanity must commit genocide to survive, then I say this: Humanity does not deserve to survive.

The first goal is survival.

There are some things more important than survival. The mark of a rational man is the ability to rise above your instincts.

 

[shilsen]

The first goal is survival.

As Falkus said, not necessarily so. But then that's his, and my, viewpoint. I recognize that yours is different.

No questions asked.

I think that's one of the basic differences we're bringing to the table here. For me, there are always questions to be asked. The day I stop questioning is the day I stop being a fully functioning human being. YMMV, and apparently does.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The foolishness is in the sentiment. Because you join in such foolishness doesn't make it any more sensible. The first goal is survival. After that, other considerations come into play. If you don't have a survival impetus, even one that you are ignoring for some purpose, then you are behaving foolishly.

Why is survival the first goal. You can surely define it, but don't pretend that to be automatically morally right.

Of course, the cylons aren't a species. They are malfunctioning machines. Your premise falls apart at that point. Humans are more inherently deserving of survival than machines. No matter how sophisitcated those machines may appear to be.

I am getting a bit tired of the claim that Cylons aren't a species or only malfunctioning machines. Cylons are biological, they can reproduce (even if they can mostly "only" clone, that doesn't mean they don't reproduce!). Even if they weren't based on organic molecules as we know them wouldn't mean you could define them as living beings.
If humanity somehow manipulated its evolution to become non-organic (maybe human mind transfered into a robot thing, or becoming beings of pure energy), would humanities right of survival suddenly be negated?

Of course, humans are more inherently deserving of survival than other species as well, but that is a different argument. I favor humans. No bones about it. No questions asked.

Nothing to bring up against that, that's certainly a view one (many) can have.
I don't want to offend you, but I have to ask this question: Couldn't such a view not also seen as racist? Since humans and Cylons can procreate, it could even be argued that they aren't actually different species anymore, so it's the same as saying whites are more worthy of survival than blacks.
Where is the difference? Can it be justified? Should there be a difference. Are we just at a point in human-nonhuman relationships that we were at white-nonwhite relationships a few decades or centuries ago?

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Strange. All in all, I found the episode to be relatively weak, but it still opened up interesting questions and discussions...