BattleStar Galactica:Season 3.0--11/10/06--Arc 6

[The Grumpy Celt]

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds...

Then why bother talking to people? Unless you're just getting a feel for their positions so you can use that information later...

Everyone is just talking past everyone.

 

[LightPhoenix]

If a strain of the common cold is a deadly killer to cylons, then they are dead on arrival. We carry dozens of significantly more deadly viruses around without knowing it. We are surrounded by dozens of deadly viruses in our every day environment. We have just built up immunities to them. Apparently, the cylons have not.

First of all, encephalitis is hardly the common cold. For an example, look up equine encephalitis, sometimes abbreviated EEE or Triple-E. At least here in Upstate NY, it's very serious, and I personally knew one person who died from it.

That said... if you build an immunity to something, it is by definition not deadly. You, I, and everyone else don't carry polio around, despite having an immunity. Your body goes and kills it, and out it goes.

You may be thinking of strains of E. coli in our stomachs, in which case as a person you have immunity to your own E. coli, but not everyone else's. In which case, we don't have immunity, so it can be deadly.

Anyway, maybe you can provide a specific example, because I think I'm getting the gist of what you are saying, but I'm not truly understanding.

Reasons why the bioweapon is a flawed premise:

1) Cylons have Human DNA. In which case, Cylons should be able to contract Human viruses, and would have pre-BSG. Or,

2) Cylons have Human DNA, but a perfect immune system. In which case, Cylons should deal with the virus no problem, since they don't get sick by design. Or,

3) Cylons are pure machines, in which case they shouldn't contract diseases at all. They can get sick (see the Mini), but not from biological means. Or,

4) In theory, if Cylons are machines, viruses and bacteria could mutate to take advantage of that (degrading metal components, for example). However, even if this were possible, a Human-borne virus would not do this the instant it hit contact with the Cylons. It would take some time, possibly years, if it could happen at all.

We know 1) is false, due to various statements throughout the series. We know 2) is false, because they got sick. We know 3) is false, since Cylons and Humans can mate, and Cylons can pass for Humans. 4) is possible, but not in the timeframe of this episode. Thus, the entire episode is based on a flawed premise. Which is the other reason I don't like this episode.

Or, I'm too much of a biochem nerd.

 

[Falkus]

Well, if they deserve to be genocid-ed, by the definition of deserve, the genocide-r is justified.

Nobody has the moral authority to carry out a sentence like that.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Nobody has the moral authority to carry out a sentence like that.

Au contrare ... anyone with the capability to impose a sentence like that has the defacto moral authority. Remember, history is written by the winners, who have a convenient ability to rationalize away any moral objections after the fact.

We can wail and gnash our teeth about might not making right, but the city fathers of Carthage find that cold comfort.

---

IMO, the point of these discussions is to have the discussion, to objectively consider ideas which might otherwise seem abhorrent or irrational. Only by examining our most deeply held moral and ethical beliefs and understanding the why of them do they provide us value. I may not agree with one or another poster in this discussion, and I certainly don't expect to change opinions -- nor, for that matter, is every opinion I post necessarily my own. I find value in the act of moral discourse.

 

[DM_Matt]

Nobody has the moral authority to carry out a sentence like that.

In what actual sense do they truly deserve death if no one can impose such a sentence. That they deserve death contradicts the idea that no one is allowed to kill them.

In the anarchic world of BSG, there is no particular authority to be the instrament of that deserved death

 

[Falkus]

Allow me to rephrase my statement:

If we had to face a choice between the survival of the species and committing genocide, the only right choice to make would be to not commit genocide. Genocide is the single most heinous crime possible.

 

[drothgery]

Reasons why the bioweapon is a flawed premise:

1) Cylons have Human DNA. In which case, Cylons should be able to contract Human viruses, and would have pre-BSG. Or,

...

We know 1) is false, due to various statements throughout the series.

Of course, we know 1) is almost true, because otherwise building a 'Cylon detector' would be a trivial exercise, and Hera wouldn't exist without the help of a team of genetic engineers and cyberneticists.

Whatever the people on Galactica and the Cylon basestars claim, the 'skinjob' Cylons are essentially human (or certainly closer to humans than anything else).

 

[Banshee16]

Humans aren't often the true disease pools, other animals are. For example, with many of the European epidemics, it was rats that carried it, and gave it to humans living in dirty areas. Cholera is thought to live in algal blooms in the ocean, hence cholera outbreaks in warm beach climates. "Bird Flu", aka H5N1, has its disease pool in, well, birds. Heck, the regular flu came from the bird-pig-human cycle, and the common cold is thought to have come from horses. So, it's possible that the Cylons would get sick.

Of course, hopefully, the thought you're having is something along the lines of sanitation stopping infection, which is true. That doesn't mean there's not a supply of organisms that can be used... I'm sure there are rats and other animals that happen to be with the fleet. Maybe not on Galactica, but probably on a ship like the Astral Queen or the *shudder* Black Market ship, whatever it was called.

So while the original premise by Storm Raven is flawed (polio in the US, smallpox worldwide, neither have a disease pool in their respective populations, heck one barely exists anymore), there are plenty of pathogens out there that could be used. You can go and find plague and black death in rat populations today - we just don't expose ourselves to it.

It's a sloppy premise, plain and simple.



That's why I don't like this episode. Either your answer is yes, or your answer is no. There is no "it depends". It's trying to raise moral questions, but it doesn't work - just read the thread, almost no one here is indecisive. It especially doesn't work as a premise because the Cylons are not sympathtic at all. If we had met more than one nice Cylon, it might be, but that's not the scenario they've set up.

I never said the decision was easy.......I *think* I know that I would support releasing the virus, but given that Cylons haven't invaded Earth, it's a rather hypothetical question. But I either believe in preserving human life, or I don't. Given that I do believe in preserving human life as much as possible, if faced with an external threat dedicated to wiping out humanity, then I'd have to support a decision in favour of using methods we previously questioned to end the threat, if such a means became available. I couldn't in good conscious not use those tools at hand to resolve the situation.

This is all assuming, of course, that alternative options were either not available, had been tried and failed, or couldn't be provided in a quick enough timeline to save humanity.

Of course, the person who finally made (and acted on) that decision would probably be tormented by it the rest of their life.

No situation like this has ever been faced by humanity before....it's not an easy thing to resolve, and I don't think the answer is as clearcut as you say. Someone can say they'd vote for one or the other option...it doesn't mean that coming to that decision was easy..

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

No surprises here for me, though I'm not sure I'd use the term "deserve." I took out a fair number of my supposedly basic imperatives years ago, including the one to produce offspring. If everyone was like me, this would be the last generation of humanity. Luckily for the species, most people aren't.

Do you eat every day to keep your strength up? Go to the doctor when you're feeling sick? Step out of the way of oncoming traffic to avoid getting hit? If you do any of these things, you've removed these imperatives as well as you think you have .

We all have them. Many of them are so basic to the human existence that we really don't pay attention to them anymore.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

And for what it's worth, if the Cylons had to commit genocide to survive, they wouldn't deserve to survive either.

The problem of whether or not one "deserves" to survive is subjective......and whether or not the Cylons deserve to survive, since they're actively pursuing genocide, has no bearing on whether they will.

This almost sounds like the case for "lawful stupid", that regularly comes up in discussions regarding paladins and what they can or can't do.

I guess that's my problem with the situation. I'm firmly against the idea of genocide, but as depicted (apparently) in the show, I don't see that there are many options. The Cylons have backed the humans into a corner, and then they're going to be surprised when they get bitten? Shouldn't have started the bloody war in the first place.

Banshee