D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

No they aren’t. They are assuming chance to hit attacks hit.

Yes it does. Always takes a combat action to cast. Does nothing if they pass the initial save. Doesn’t boost damage at all unless your allies attack the enemy, which they may not even get a chance to do depending on initiative.

Don’t get me wrong I think hold person/monster is a good spell, but it’s a bit risky (high chance of doing nothing).

It is risky, but it is also a much lower level spell you are using (and a lot lower risk if you use the same slot and upcast it on multiple enemies)

Needing to take 2 rounds to hold concentration against a CR24+ enemy and needing to be within 15 feet of that enemy is extremely situational (i.e. risky)

Now against lower level enemies this would be very reliable, but it is not needed against them. It is like using Power Word Kill on a goblin or casting Tsunami to kill all the commoners in an entire town .... of course it works!
 
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Most of the time you will have to make numerous concentration saves
Most of the time they are dead.
No need to make concentration saves against dead enemies.
and for it to matter it needs to be a single high hit point enemy.
No it doesn't.

It's not a single attack. It's multiple attacks against, which can target multiple creatures, and you can move between them.
I mean you say it is not situational, but you can't come up with a single enemy it would actually work
I already did..
against and when I asked you to you gave an example of an entire party using their abilities to land this one thing.
It's a deadly encounter. CME isn't broken that i can one round a deadly encounter for 4 solo.

With some luck I could probably 1 round a deadly encounter for 3 though. Maybe.

Monk Drags Wizard into place. Monk ends turn. The Monk is another creature.
Dragon gets Legendary and attacks Wizard,
Ok, you convinced me to drop the monk.

I will just use a party of 2
The CME blaster.
And a support caster.

Pick your encounter.
 

It's not a single attack. It's multiple attacks against, which can target multiple creatures, and you can move between them.

RAW you can't move between Eldritch Blasts or between Scorching Rays. It is one spell you are casting. You cast EB and you fire all of them from where you are standing. Same with Scorching Ray.

It only works on those within 15 feet of you ... and if any are within 5 feet of you all of the attacks are at disadvantage, meaning on a grid it is really only creatures in a narrow band between 10 feet and 15 feet if you don't want disadvantage.

Now if this is a 14th level Sorcerer/6th level Fighter using a 8th level quickened CME and action surge then yes sure you can move and target different enemies and this is awesome and not very situational, but you are not doing this amazing 500+ damage or whatever you are talking about with this example.

I will just use a party of 2
The CME blaster.
And a support caster.

Pick your encounter.

I already pointed out it won't work at all on a Terrasque regrdless of the situation, you've conceded it won't work on an ancient red dragon, even with a situational purpose built party specifically for this encounter.

It won't work on any other Ancient Dragon, It won't work on Vecna, it is unlikely to work against a Kraken, it is unlikely to work against Demogorgon, it won't work on Zariel, It is unlikely to work on Windfall, it has a decent chance on working against Yeenogu if you play him like an enraged demon, or little chance if you play him calculating and smart ... I am running out of CR23+ monsters who's abilities I know. There is 17 example monsters. It has no chance or very little chance of working against 13 of them. 3 it could work on situationally or with some luck and 1 it probably will work on if the DM plays it crazy (which is thematic for that monster) .... so like I said highly situational

You don't seem to understand how concentration or legendary actions or movement with actions work, which is probably why you are not understanding how situational this white room is.

It is a simple question - provide a white room example of something this would be way OP on RAW and one that is not really, really situational, requiring specific allies and specific setups (because those things make it situational).
 
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RAW you can't move between Eldritch Blasts or between Scorching Rays. It is one spell you are casting. You cast EB and you fire all of them from where you are standing. Same with Scorching Ray.

It only works on those within 15 feet of you ... and if any are within 5 feet of you all of the attacks are at disadvantage, meaning on a grid it is really only creatures in a narrow band between 10 feet and 15 feet if you don't want disadvantage.

Now if this is a 14th level Sorcerer/6th level Fighter using a 7th level quickened CME and action surge then yes sure you can move and target different enemies, but you are not doing this amazing 500+ damage or whatever you are talking about.



I can't think of any example it will be OP. I already pointed out it won't work at all on a Terrasque regrdless of the situation, you've conceded it won't work on an ancient red dragon, even with a situational purpose built party specifically for this encounter.

It won't work on any other Ancient Dragon, It won't work on Vecna, it is unlikely to work against a Kraken, it is unlikely to work against Demogorgon, it won't work on Zariel, it has a decent chance on working against Yeenogu if you play him like an enraged demon, or little chance if you play him calculating and smart ... I am running out of monsters who's stats I know.

You don't seem to understand how concentration or legendary actions or movement with actions work.

It is a simple question - provide a white room example of something this would be way OP on RAW and one that is not really, really situational, requiring specific allies and specific setups.

This. I think it's a good spell buy situational. Might be the best damage dealing spell but it's only direct damage.

Scorching ray is cute but it's also the second most resistant damage type after poison.

So you need a low AC enemy with buckets of hit points, no resistances, a higher level spell slot etc. And in that situation it's really good.
 

This. I think it's a good spell buy situational. Might be the best damage dealing spell but it's only direct damage.

Scorching ray is cute but it's also the second most resistant damage type after poison.

So you need a low AC enemy with buckets of hit points, no resistances, a higher level spell slot etc. And in that situation it's really good.

No or weak legendary actions and no ability to stay far away from the caster as well.
 

RAW you can't move between Eldritch Blasts or between Scorching Rays. It is one spell you are casting. You cast EB and you fire all of them from where you are standing
Revamped strategy.

Use familiar / arcane eye / clairvoyance to scout.
Pre-cast CME (8th).
Ally wizard cast foresight + haste on me.
Ally wizard readies dimension door for the start of my turn.

We teleport in,
Haste -> EB
Quicken -> EB
Action Surge -> attack + EB
Action - attack + EB
= 16 rays
1d10+5+10d8
= 55.5 per ray
16 rays = 888 damage * 75% accuracy
= 666 damage.

+3 weapon attacks (including Nick)
+possible Scorching Ray (7th) for another 4 attacks.


If running solo, you can use Phantom Steed to get first strike in most situations and maybe 1-shot some of these things without haste.
and if any are within 5 feet of you all of the attacks are at disadvant
spell sniper. Also, not sure why I would walk that close.
Now if this is a 14th level Sorcerer/6th level Fighter using a 7th level quickened CME and action surge then yes sure you can move and target different enemies, but you are not doing this amazing 500+ damage or whatever you are talking about.
Eldritch Knight can only use Wizard cantrips. Firebolt doesn't give the multipler. It also lacks spell slots.

Bladesinger and Valor Bard can use any cantrip (EB).
I already pointed out it won't work at all on a Terrasque regrdless of the situation,
Yes. Though I just use Fly and shoot it with arrows.

Side question... does Truestrike bounce off the Terrasque?
you've conceded it won't work on an ancient red dragon
No. I said i wouldn't use the monk to drag me.
It won't work on Vecna
272 HP and can counter spell 1 EB.

55.5 per ray *12 rays * .75 accuracy
= 499.5

Heck. I may not even need haste.
55.5 per ray *8 rays * .75 accuracy
= 333

So yea, no haste needed. Just advantage.
it is unlikely to work against a Kraken
472 HP is less than 666 damage, no special defense.
it is unlikely to work against Demogorgon
464 HP, no special defense
it won't work on Zariel
580 HP.
Will need radiant damage to finish.
So the support wizard will need to cast a spell.
it has a decent chance on working against Yeenogu
333 HP, no special defense.
You don't seem to understand how concentration or legendary actions or movement with actions work.
They can't take legendary actions if they are dead before the end of their turn.


Now. Maybe the new stat blocks will have reactions at other times besides the end of the turn.


But I have a 2 person team kill the top level monsters (except Tarrasque) without taking damage, multiple times a day. No magic items either.
 
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Revamped strategy.

Use familiar / arcane eye / clairvoyance to scout.
Pre-cast CME (8th).
Ally wizard cast foresight + haste on me.
Ally wizard readies dimension door for the start of my turn.

We teleport in,
Haste -> EB
Quicken -> EB
Action Surge -> attack + EB
Action - attack + EB
= 16 rays
1d10+5+10d8
= 55.5 per ray
16 rays = 888 damage * 75% accuracy
= 666 damage.

+3 weapon attacks (including Nick)
+possible Scorching Ray (7th) for another 4 attacks.


HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY Situational with multiple players working and using numerous resources to set up this one spell (and risking a teleport failure).

You are proving my point - it is very situational.

I want an example that does not rely on other PCs having the exact spells you need to make it work and that you don't have to scout ahead of time or cast a spell ahead of time or have a specific corner case build just for this one fight.

Claiming something is good on a multiclass build using a 2014 Subclass and a Warlock dip while also needing other specific spells to make it work is situational.

If this is such a powerful spell and not situtional, it should be usable on a straight class spell caster ina situation that does not require precasting or a ton of extra setup.

For example - I cast Forcecage on him and just use Cantrips until he is dead. That is an extremely powerful spell and will work most of the time. It will work on most of the monsters I named, and it will work regardless of what kind of caster the PC is, regardless of his allies and it will even usually work with no allies at all. There are some enemies it does not work against but it is widely useable and relatively robust across a large range of party makeups with a large range of spell caster builds, with little specificity on initiative, or pre-scounting an area, or precasting a spell and it works against a large number of powerful monsters ... i.e. it is not situational

Also, not sure why I would walk that close.

Because you need to get within 15 feet to get any CME damage.


They can't take legendary actions if they are dead before the end of their turn.

Yes they can. Where are you getting this from? Please provide a reference that states they can not use legendaries before their turn. Monster Manual on page 11 clearly says they use Legendary actions "at the end of another creatures turn"

You don't understand the rules.

Vecna: Vecna can use Fell Rebuke as a REACTION and teleport away from you and out of range after you hit him with the first attack (while also damaging you) and he gets 3 reactions a round. 12d8 plus whatever that attack is will not kill him, not even if you precast it, win initiative and crit. This will NEVER work against Vecna unless he is incapacitated before you try to pull this off and well if that is the case, what beat him being incapactitated, not your spell.

Demogorgon: Demogorgon has numerous things he can use. He can stun you from 120feet away with a Legendary action (which he absolutley can use before he goes in initiative). He also has spells that can completely debilitate you including Fear and Feeblemind and he can cast those on a legendary action too and that is if he does not win initiative. Now depending on your class you have a chance of beating that save which is why I said with some luck or in certain situations it will work against him. Not most of the time though.

Zariel: Zariel can use a Legendary action to teleport (and she can do it before the caster's turn) and will not be anywhere near a the caster using CME.

Kraken: A Kraken has a tentacle attack and fling both of which can be done with legendary actions. As I said it is situationally useful with a Kraken. Most of the time it is not going to work. With some lucky rolls and positioning that favors the caster it can work. It is situationally effective.

Yenoghu: Yenoghu can move 50 feet as a legendary action and he can also use his flail which can paralyze the caster as a legendary action and cause a concentration save even if he is not paralyzed. RAW he can do these before he goes in combat. Playing it smart with the 50 foot move he will usually be able to avoid being within 15 feet of you, playing it bloodthirsty and attacking the caster with legendary actions will make it likely to cause a drop in concentration. Either way this can be situationally effective.

Now. Maybe the new stat blocks will have reactions at other times besides the end of the turn.

Reactions work whenever the triggering event occurs. You can use it on your turn, the enemies turn, between turns, whenever the trigger happens. In the new rules you can even use a reaction before your turn if you are surprised. Vecna is the only monster I listed with reactions in the stat block. The others have Legendary actions (in the old statblock). Legendary actions that work on the end of OTHER CREATURE'S TURNS.

Please read the rules if you want to continue this discussion. You do not understand how Legendary Actions work and it is of no value discussing how things work if you fundamentally do not understand the rules.

If you keep insisting that Legendary actions come at the end of the Legendary creature's turn, please provide a page number where any official rulebook states this. Twice now, I've provided the page that says it can be used at other times.
 
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It's hard for a spell to be broken regardless of how much damage it deals. I consider meteor swarm to be barely usable for example.

I would at least wait for a bit to see it in actual play. Level 4 15' range? Sorcerers get it?
 

HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY Situational with multiple players working and using numerous resources to set up this one spell
Teamwork is not situational in any game I've played.
(and risking a teleport failure).
No risk if you saw the destination.
I want an example that does not rely on other PCs having the exact spells you need to make it work and that you don't have to scout ahead of time or cast a spell ahead of time or have a specific corner case build just for this one fight.
It's winning every fight (except Tarrasque).

But sure. You're alone, and an Ice Devil is right next to you. A deadly encounter for a single PC.

CME
Action surge
Quicken.
55.5 damage * 8 rays * 50% = 222 damage.

It's dead.

If this is such a powerful spell and not situtional, it should be usable on a straight class spell caster ina situation that does not require precasting or a ton of extra setup.
You're really moving the goal post here.
Because you need to get within 15 feet to get any CME damage.
15' is not 5'.

And again, spell sniper.
Yes they can. Where are you getting this from? Please provide a reference that states they can not use legendaries before their turn.
Dead creatures don't get legendary actions.
Vecna: Vecna can use Fell Rebuke as a REACTION and teleport away from you and out of range after you hit him with the first attack (while also damaging you) and he gets 3 reactions a round.
but only one per turn.

You attack, she moves.
you walk 30' and kill her.
She can't take another reaction.
12d8 plus whatever that attack is will not kill him, not even if you precast it, win initiative and crit.
it's not 12d8.
It's 12d8 per attack.

If you want to fix CME to be once per turn, then sure. That will solve this issue.
Demogorgon: Demogorgon has numerous things he can use. He can stun you from 120feet away with a Legendary action (which he absolutley can use before he goes in initiative).
Dead creatures do not get legendary actions.
Zariel: Zariel can use a Legendary action to teleport (and she can do it before the caster's turn) and will not be anywhere near a the caster using CME.
Dead creatures do not get legendary actions.

And he regeneration is at the start of his turn. So that won't give him any either. Though he might get one turn in, depending on initiative.

Kraken: A Kraken has a tentacle attack and fling both of which can be done with legendary actions.
Dead creatures do not get legendary actions.
Yenoghu: Yenoghu can move 50 feet as a legendary action
Dead creatures do not get legendary actions.
Vecna is the only monster I listed with reactions in the stat block.
Correct. She is the only one who can do anything.

Eveyone else is dead before the end of the turn.
The others have Legendary actions (in the old statblock). Legendary actions that work on the end of OTHER CREATURE'S TURNS.
They are dead before the end of the turn.
You do not understand how Legendary Actions work
Dead creatures do not get legendary actions.

That's how they work.
If you keep insisting that Legendary actions come at the end of the Legendary creature's turn
If you keep insisting that dead creatures can take legendary actions, please provide the page number.
 


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