Biggest 4E PHB complaint...

[GoodKingJayIII]

Also, my biggest problem with the PHB was the Great Wall of Powers. And the dread that all books will have their own Great Walls.

Just out of curiousity, how did you approach the Great Wall of Spells?

 

[billd91]

Just out of curiousity, how did you approach the Great Wall of Spells?

The "Great Wall" of spells had class-specific indices to it to offer some help in figuring out which entries you actually had to focus on. Plus, the "Great Wall" of spells was more like a set of reference shelves to review after reading the rules and they were relegated to the last segment of the rulebook. They weren't a rampart right in the middle of the handbook that must either be scaled or run around to get to the rest of the rules.
I can't knock WotC much for putting the powers with the class write ups, but it does make for a big chunk in the middle.

 

[Imaro]

I have a hard time seeing a rogue "controller"... they can hinder individual opponents, but how are they going go hold down groups or do damage to multiple opponents?

Blinding Barage...

 

[malraux]

The "Great Wall" of spells had class-specific indices to it to offer some help in figuring out which entries you actually had to focus on. Plus, the "Great Wall" of spells was more like a set of reference shelves to review after reading the rules and they were relegated to the last segment of the rulebook. They weren't a rampart right in the middle of the handbook that must either be scaled or run around to get to the rest of the rules.
I can't knock WotC much for putting the powers with the class write ups, but it does make for a big chunk in the middle.

Are people trying to just read through every word of the classes chapter? To me, the classes chapter is easy to read. Its really just a compilation of 8 mini books, but you really only need to read the intro to each and maybe the first few powers. That give you enough to pick a class and create a character. You'll only look at higher level powers once you level.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

The "Great Wall" of spells had class-specific indices to it to offer some help in figuring out which entries you actually had to focus on. Plus, the "Great Wall" of spells was more like a set of reference shelves to review after reading the rules and they were relegated to the last segment of the rulebook. They weren't a rampart right in the middle of the handbook that must either be scaled or run around to get to the rest of the rules.
I can't knock WotC much for putting the powers with the class write ups, but it does make for a big chunk in the middle.

They could have put the 1st level powers in with the character classes, and put the rest in it's own section. Great Wall of Powers is a good term, because it sure felt like a brick wall when I was reading the PHB. The owners manual for my '93 Volvo was more fun to read than that book.

 

[RabidBob]

System aside my problem is that the Tiefling is a direct cut and paste from World of Warcraft. If you don't believe me check it yourself.

Tieflings have been around since Planescape (iirc) which was early-mid 90ies. There are remarkable similarities though, so maybe the idea pollination went the opposite way to what you are suggesting.

 

[The Little Raven]

They could have put the 1st level powers in with the character classes, and put the rest in it's own section.

So, you'd have to flip back and forth between the class and another section in order to see what the class can do at higher levels? No thanks, that's horrible organization. Having everything exclusive to the class in one place is the best solution.

 

[The Little Raven]

There are remarkable similarities though, so maybe the idea pollination went the opposite way to what you are suggesting.

Tiefling - The descendants of a pact between devils and humans in an ancient empire, which resulted in a new race.

Eredar - The descendants of a race of arcane masters who fled corruption and gained faith in the Holy Light.

But hey, if we're going to say that horns and tails mean remarkable similarities, then I guess tieflings are just like satyrs.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

The "Great Wall" of spells had class-specific indices to it to offer some help in figuring out which entries you actually had to focus on.

But with the current format, you don't really need indices. If you're playing a Cleric, you focus on Cleric powers. I agree it's a huge chunk of the book, but I think it's the best place for those powers to be. Especially for new players, whom I like to include. Once we figure out what they want to play, I point them to their class, help them build a character, and they pretty much live there from then on. They can explore the rules in detail as we play and on their own time, but if they're only interested in just one class, there is an absolutel minimum of searching, flipping, and referencing. It's very convenient.

Plus, the "Great Wall" of spells was more like a set of reference shelves to review after reading the rules and they were relegated to the last segment of the rulebook. They weren't a rampart right in the middle of the handbook that must either be scaled or run around to get to the rest of the rules. I can't knock WotC much for putting the powers with the class write ups, but it does make for a big chunk in the middle.

It's still a hurdle, just in a different place. If I want to play a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, or Wizard, it's a hurdle that I'll have to jump eventually.

You also seem to imply that, in order to read a particular chapter, you have to read all that comes before. I have not found that necessary in my experience. The Combat chapter is perfectly easy to understand without having read Race and Class chapters, for instance.

So under the current format, there are some hurdles, but I think by grouping the powers with classes they've been severely reduced. Find the class you want to play, and focus on that class and its powers. Done!

 

[RabidBob]

Tiefling - The descendants of a pact between devils and humans in an ancient empire, which resulted in a new race.

Eredar - The descendants of a race of arcane masters who fled corruption and gained faith in the Holy Light.

But hey, if we're going to say that horns and tails mean remarkable similarities, then I guess tieflings are just like satyrs.

Yes. Supernatural pacts in the racial background, similar physical characteristics. Similarities.