Biggest 4E PHB complaint...

[The Little Raven]

Yes. Supernatural pacts in the racial background, similar physical characteristics. Similarities.

Well, since humans were the ones engaged in said pact, and humans share physical characteristics with tieflings (arms, legs, eyes, hair), then I guess humans and tieflings are remarkably similar.

Hell, anything is remarkably similar if we ignore all the pertinent details.

 

[RabidBob]

Well, since humans were the ones engaged in said pact, and humans share physical characteristics with tieflings (arms, legs, eyes, hair), then I guess humans and tieflings are remarkably similar.

Yes, they are. They're both bipedal and have a common racial background at some point.

Hell, anything is remarkably similar if we ignore all the pertinent details.

Not quite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarity

Similarity is some degree of symmetry in either analogy and resemblance between two or more concepts or objects.

Tiefling - The descendants of a pact between devils and humans in an ancient empire, which resulted in a new race.

Eredar

The great titan Sargeras, in order to create a great Legion, planned to bolster his ranks by creating demons.[1] He was attracted by the eredar's magical affinity, and contacted them, promising their three leaders, Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Velen, immortality and vast powers.
...
The eredar were the first sentient race to pledge their allegiance to Sargeras.

 

[The Little Raven]

They're "remarkably similar," if you consider doing exactly the opposite in a situation to be "remarkably similar."

Tieflings...

...forged a pact with divine evil.
...gained vast, evil powers.
...took over their homeland as the new power.
...changed in appearance to reflect their newfound power.

Draenei...

...fled from a pact with divine evil.
...gained holy powers.
...were exiled from their homeland.
...remained unchanged in appearance.

 

[RabidBob]

They're "remarkably similar," if you consider doing exactly the opposite in a situation to be "remarkably similar."

Tieflings...

...forged a pact with divine evil.
...gained vast, evil powers.
...took over their homeland as the new power.
...changed in appearance to reflect their newfound power.

Draenei...

...fled from a pact with divine evil.
...gained holy powers.
...were exiled from their homeland.
...remained unchanged in appearance.

Yes. Supernatural pacts in the racial background, similar physical characteristics. Similarities.

Opposed to similar-ness is exact-ness.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/exact#Adjective

 

[billd91]

You also seem to imply that, in order to read a particular chapter, you have to read all that comes before. I have not found that necessary in my experience. The Combat chapter is perfectly easy to understand without having read Race and Class chapters, for instance.

Not necessarily, but you can certainly see someone getting to that section, starting to flip through even without reading, and getting a little boggled.
"OK, <flip> <flip> <flip>. Still going <flip> <flip> <flip> holy cow <flip> <flip> <flip> Where does this end? <flip> <flip> <flip> Sheesh!"

I won't deny that having the powers all in those chunk has its advantages. But I think some people have had an easier time approaching the 3e spell list because of the recognition that it's an encyclopedic reference tool, and they adjust their expectations accordingly.

 

[Asmor]

I think you're really splitting hairs...

What matters most is their appearance, and 4e tieflings ARE draenei through a red filter and with a tail. There's no two ways about it.

If it weren't for the fact that their used to be a race called "tiefling" which shared a very vague concept with 4th edition tieflings (humans with an infernal twist), we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

4th edition tieflings are an entirely different entity from the previous tieflings in appearance, backstory and, for the most part, concept. 4th edition tieflings look remarkably like draenei. Looks matter most, because your first impression is from the art.

 

[VanRichten]

What matters most is their appearance, and 4e tieflings ARE draenei through a red filter and with a tail. There's no two ways about it.

This is correct. My original post was based on the artwork. My apologies for not specifying.

 

[The Little Raven]

Not necessarily, but you can certainly see someone getting to that section, starting to flip through even without reading, and getting a little boggled.
"OK, <flip> <flip> <flip>. Still going <flip> <flip> <flip> holy cow <flip> <flip> <flip> Where does this end? <flip> <flip> <flip> Sheesh!"

If 13-15 pages for all the 1-30 powers of an entire class is too much to handle, then I don't that person is serious about RPGs in any way, especially when at first level they only need to read the first 4 pages or so of the class.

 

[The Little Raven]

My original post was based on the artwork.

Worlds apart in design.

 

[I'm A Banana]

4th edition tieflings are an entirely different entity from the previous tieflings in appearance, backstory and, for the most part, concept. 4th edition tieflings look remarkably like draenei. Looks matter most, because your first impression is from the art.

Y'know, it's probably my Planescape bias, but I love the idea of tieflings as orphans, social rejects, and general outcasts, looked askanse at because of their "different" nature, necessarily assumed evil even though they aren't necessarily evil.

It's a really great RP vehicle to trot out concepts like social equality, to play with the medieval idea of "your blood is who you are," to twist this idea of self-determination when you are literally part of the evil of the planes, and even to work with concepts like race and class divides in a fantasy context in a way that's maybe a little easier to buy than goblins or orcs or the like.

These new tieflings with their ancient empire and their evil pact and their "no one really holds it against us but look how almost evil we are!" don't have the same juicy RP potential. They might have some different potential, perhaps more suited to Swords and Sorcery, but as a fan of urban fantasy and fantasy-as-allegory, it's less suited to the kind of games I like to run.

But the new tieflings aren't draenei knock-offs in anything but artistic style (and even there, they are "different enough" because of their accessories and style of dress and the like). Art matters, and they have similarities, but they remain pretty distinct.