D&D 5E Breaking down alignment to a basic core

[Scribe]

I've tried several times to figure out how to remove the 'good/evil' from the equation, since most people find Law vs Chaos easier to accept.

It starts to fall down once you look at it as a subjective moral judgement. I then try to look at it from a Self vs Holistic vs Group focus.

Law + Self = You want a system of controls to exist but you are concerned with your ability to navigate that system.
Chaos + Self = You want no system of controls to exist, you are only concerned with your own desires.
Law/Chaos + Holistic = Self/Group ceases to matter in relation to Law/Organization or Chaos/Disorder.
Law + Group = The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual and there must be order imposed on individuals.
Chaos + Group = The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual, and groups must be free from control by individuals.

I've never really tried to clean up the concept, because I dont really have an issue with the alignment system (and I love the great wheel that depends on it really) anyway.

 

[tetrasodium]

I've tried several times over the years to remove one or more axis from the alignment chart or to use something else in their place but generally the results are not pretty. Whenever the alignment actually mattered it was awkward to hash out but not such a big deal. A good number of players seem to be so reliant on it as a railroad that they break down into either being the joker but more vicious & evil or some extreme paragon of virtue & goodness with very little of benefit being added to the game in turn. The only version of it I've seen that worked well & added something without causing players to breakdown was this thematic alignment

 

[Scribe]

Yes, the problem I run into is one of the core elements of High Fantasy, you presence of a 'great evil'. Well if we have great evil, there must be great good, and if there is, why does this system of morality not apply to the PCs?

You also have almost immediately spells like Protection from Evil and Good, which could just be changed to "protection from non-natural" or something but yeah, at that point its simply not so clean.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, the problem I run into is one of the core elements of High Fantasy, you presence of a 'great evil'. Well if we have great evil, there must be great good, and if there is, why does this system of morality not apply to the PCs?

You also have almost immediately spells like Protection from Evil and Good, which could just be changed to "protection from non-natural" or something but yeah, at that point its simply not so clean.

Mortals have free will, immortal beings & some cursed mortals (ie werecreatures) are more bound by their nature or curse. A hurricane tornado or forest fire is a decidedly bad thing that could even be called some shade of evil if it were sentient & capable of exerting any choices but just gets called a natural disaster because they aren't & can't. A fiend celestial or whatever has intelligence & more free will than a natural disaster but is still limited in terms of how much they can exercise that free will.

For cursed mortals like were wolves & such, the kate daniels books are a nice set of books targeted similarly as the dresden files books that do a great job of exploring how people might live with such a curse & how it might shape them culturally without getting twilighty. (spoiler: a lot like hardcore AA if AA members really wanted to tear people apart & eat them rather than have too many drinks but with a few twists). The cupcake dowser books also touch on it a bit though differently. The iron druid does as well but to an even lesser degree but with more gods. For how immortals exist with limited free will... The Dresden files books somewhat get into it wih the fae courts to interesting degrees with harry acting as a catspaw to direct through loopholes while walker papers does a great job of showing how one could exist nonlinearly as cernunnos starts having problems due to the influence of time travel & free willed mortals generating multiple timelines yet to develop that he has trouble sorting. Over time The hollows series does a great job of showing how immortal beings view being summoned by sketchy mortals wanting them to do nonsense before they can go back to doing whatever they were doing (think answering the door dripping wet with shampoo still in your hair)

At least that's how I handle it

 

[Bawylie]

Drop alignment from PCs. Their decisions in the game / how they portray their adventurers defines their value system.

Use alignment on NPCs as a shorthand for their AI, generally. Lawful creatures will announce themselves and attempt to parlay prior to violence. They will accept surrender. They will uphold agreements and cooperate / use tactics. Chaotic creatures will ambush, fight to the death & refuse surrender, are generally unwilling to negotiate; they engage in violence first, and attack downed PCs. They don’t use complex tactics.

good creatures can be counted on to behave altruistically, to provide help when asked, to defend the vulnerable, to value others.
Evil creatures can be counted on to behave selfishly (I’m not talking about a greedy merchant here, I mean really toxic), to lie, cheat, steal, or whatever it takes to achieve their own pursuit.

unaligned creatures like things that are good and dislike things that are bad. They’re helpful but won’t stick their own necks out. They’ll go to the mat for their own (family or group or pack or whatever) but are unlikely to help a stranger at cost. They’ll keep their word as long as it’s easy to but cave in if it gets too hard.

start with that, mix and match, and add any cultural mores that are appropriate to the creature for the setting. Now your players can observe these behaviors and predict/rely on them in game. They’ll know what most dwarves are like and what to expect when dealing with the encroaching orc horde.

TL/DR use alignment to shorthand modes of behavior for NPCs and don’t worry about some objective morality system for players.

Except Paladins who should all be lawful good like Superman.

 

[Scribe]

Except Paladins who should all be lawful good like Superman.

Whoa whoa, we were good to go up to that point...

 

[TheSword]

Responsible for more memes than any other part of D&D. Only a madman would remove 9 stage alignment from D&D.

The perfect opportunity to remove it, was during 5e after it was partly streamlined for 4e. Guess what, they didn’t.

Alignment works fine for most people... most people who just agree as a table what means what. There’s only a certain type of tyrannical DM getting off on tormenting players and THAT Player who believes the Great Wheel revolves around them, that turn it into an issue.

There is no philosophical or grammar/dictionary based argument for why it’s bad because Alignment is entirely subjective to the group. Nebulous, loose and open to interpretation... just like any universal system (applicable to a world full of cultures ) of morality should be.

Alignment is a result (not the cause) of player behaviours and is a useful shorthand for informing NPC behaviours. See 5e can treat PCs and NPCs different... in the rules.

Anyway, you’ll never be rid of Alignment cuz of the Blood War, the Great Wheel, the Robes of the Archmagi and Asmodeus. At least a few of which are the current design team’s favourite things.

 

[embee]

View attachment 132029

Responsible for more memes than any other part of D&D. Only a madman would remove 9 stage alignment from D&D.

The perfect opportunity to remove it, was during 5e after it was partly streamlined for 4e. Guess what, they didn’t.

Alignment works fine for most people... most people who just agree as a table what means what. There’s only a certain type of tyrannical DM getting off on tormenting players and THAT Player who believes the Great Wheel revolves around them, that turn it into an issue.

There is no philosophical or grammar/dictionary based argument for why it’s bad because Alignment is entirely subjective to the group. Nebulous, loose and open to interpretation... just like any universal system (applicable to a world full of cultures ) of morality should be.

Alignment is a result (not the cause) of player behaviours and is a useful shorthand for informing NPC behaviours. See 5e can treat PCs and NPCs different... in the rules.

Anyway, you’ll never be rid of Alignment cuz of the Blood War, the Great Wheel, the Robes of the Archmagi and Asmodeus. At least a few of which are the current design team’s favourite things.

Your meme is incorrect. An extended pinky is lawful evil, not lawful good.

Extending your pinky while drinking your tea is terrible etiquette. Three fingers is for holding your tea sandwich. Your teacup should be held with the pinky tucked away.

Unless, of course, you wish to inform your tea companions that you are an uncultured boor with a head full of misconceptions.

 

[TheSword]

Your meme is incorrect. An extended pinky is lawful evil, not lawful good.

Extending your pinky while drinking your tea is terrible etiquette. Three fingers is for holding your tea sandwich. Your teacup should be held with the pinky tucked away.

Unless, of course, you wish to inform your tea companions that you are an uncultured boor with a head full of misconceptions.

In 41 years I’ve never heard of a tea sandwich! Please share.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I don't see alignment as a useful mechanic if your game isn't set in either Michael Moorcock or Poul Anderson's universe.