This is going to be fairly simplistic but it seems to me that if the Scry can be avoided then the rest of the plan falls apart. I have played in a game where scrying was heavily used against our party, and this became a problem. To get around this we had some VERY powerful magical items created that used Mind Blank which solved that problem all together. This will not work for all DM's though. The other question is what powerful chr is not going to have spellcasters put up antiscry/location spells on thier strongholds? If they do not that would be insane in my book. The short of it is that there are spells that handle scrying in the book and I feel they should be used because no matter how much we may dislike it Buffscrytel is a tactic that can be abused.
Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?
- Thread starter Plane Sailing
- Start date
dcollins
Explorer
First of all, my analysis of scrying in general is that basically every single spellcaster of the appropriate level simply must have detect scrying functioning on themselves all the time. (As important as the 24 hour duration is the fact that it has no component cost and no chance of failure -- unlike nondetection.)
Secondly, it does seem like problems arise out of an overly-lax interpretation of the teleport clause for the "studied carefully" case. I don't see how scrying once immediately counts as "carefully studying" an area. The language which begins with "you've been there often" needs to be contextualized with "scrying" -- you can use scrying, but you need to scry often and you need to actually study the place. This was perhaps more obvious in the language of previous editions of the game -- that "studied carefully" was a categorization for a place that you'd spent extensive downtime specifically preparing as the target for a teleport spell.
It seems like such a one-time use much more obviously falls into following category:
However, I will admit that this pattern probably became more problematic as a side-effect of the nerfing of the "mishap" category. In previous editions, the "mishap" result included teleporting into a solid object for immediate destruction, no save. Nobody wanted to make teleporting into unusual areas a regular tactic under those rules.
Secondly, it does seem like problems arise out of an overly-lax interpretation of the teleport clause for the "studied carefully" case. I don't see how scrying once immediately counts as "carefully studying" an area. The language which begins with "you've been there often" needs to be contextualized with "scrying" -- you can use scrying, but you need to scry often and you need to actually study the place. This was perhaps more obvious in the language of previous editions of the game -- that "studied carefully" was a categorization for a place that you'd spent extensive downtime specifically preparing as the target for a teleport spell.
It seems like such a one-time use much more obviously falls into following category:
However, I will admit that this pattern probably became more problematic as a side-effect of the nerfing of the "mishap" category. In previous editions, the "mishap" result included teleporting into a solid object for immediate destruction, no save. Nobody wanted to make teleporting into unusual areas a regular tactic under those rules.
Last edited:
Sagiro said:I don't have my books handy, but if memory serves there is a simple solution to most cases of the Buff-Scry-Teleport problem.
IIRC, there is a 5th level arcane spell in Tome and Blood called "Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum." It renders some huge area (I think a 30' cube per level) immune to scrying for 24 hours. At 9th level, that's an area 90' on a side and 30' high. Cast it centered on your campsite each night and rest easy.
Seems like this spell was tailor-made precisely to counter the rampant scry-fests that games might otherwise become. At high levels, a single 5th-level spell per day is easily worth the peace of mind.
If I'm misremembering the spell, I'm sure someone will correct me.
-Sagiro
Now *this* was what I was wondering; trust Mordenkainen to solve the problem (and Sagiro to remember where the solution is...). This spell takes care of the buffscrytel at the cost of a 5th level spell slot for when you bed down (or home use), and a Persistent Nondetection (or something similar) if you're worried when out on the town. Cool beans.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Using only PHB core spells, yes, I'd say it's a problem. It's just too consistent. Scrying, in general, is too consistent; sure, it may take a few hours to do correctly, but you'll succeed. Teleport is pretty consistent, too, and at least according to the simplest interpretation of the rules you can teleport to a spot you Scried someone at.
Now, it might not be horrendously unbalanced. Players who know what to expect will be able to manage somewhat, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Some possible changes:
> When you Scry, the viewing sensor appears near the target one minute before you start receiving data. If the people you're viewing notice its presence they can dispel it before you ever see them. Greater Scry's sensor appears one round before you get data.
(This makes the spells that notify you when scried on MUCH stronger)
> There are spells that let you fool Scryings by feeding them a different image, or that blocks them entirely. Make a low-level version that partly fools them, by giving a scrambled background. They know they're being partially blocked, they can still tell what you're doing, they can kinda tell where you are (if it's somewhere they were already familiar with, they recognize it, but if it's someplace they've never been it's not enough to Teleport). So, if it lasts 1 hour per level, and moves with you, does that sound like a level 2 spell?
> Make Teleport take a small amount of time; let's say 2 minutes (20 rounds). You cast it, you immediately disappear, two minutes later you appear at your destination. It still FEELS instantaneous, but any "1 round/level" spells, like oh, MASS HASTE, will have expired in transit. It also keeps Teleport from being used as an improved Dimension Door (no lost action!).
Now, it might not be horrendously unbalanced. Players who know what to expect will be able to manage somewhat, but that shouldn't be necessary.
Some possible changes:
> When you Scry, the viewing sensor appears near the target one minute before you start receiving data. If the people you're viewing notice its presence they can dispel it before you ever see them. Greater Scry's sensor appears one round before you get data.
(This makes the spells that notify you when scried on MUCH stronger)
> There are spells that let you fool Scryings by feeding them a different image, or that blocks them entirely. Make a low-level version that partly fools them, by giving a scrambled background. They know they're being partially blocked, they can still tell what you're doing, they can kinda tell where you are (if it's somewhere they were already familiar with, they recognize it, but if it's someplace they've never been it's not enough to Teleport). So, if it lasts 1 hour per level, and moves with you, does that sound like a level 2 spell?
> Make Teleport take a small amount of time; let's say 2 minutes (20 rounds). You cast it, you immediately disappear, two minutes later you appear at your destination. It still FEELS instantaneous, but any "1 round/level" spells, like oh, MASS HASTE, will have expired in transit. It also keeps Teleport from being used as an improved Dimension Door (no lost action!).
mkletch
First Post
Spatzimaus said:
Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 day
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about him. In the case of scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Jeremy
Explorer
As detect scrying only detects the sensor (which our party does already with scry checks), it is not generally a useful spell.
Private Sanctum works great as long as the opponent hasn't seen the interior before, or you don't intend to be mobile. At least it stops you from getting jumped while your tanks' armor is off. 100 rounds to put it back on? Guess we're going commando style...
Forbiddance cuts the teleport part of of the bargain thus helping greatly but could prove exorbitant, a good investment for any mid to long term base of operations.
Mindblank is great, but it's 8th level and deservedly so. Casting a spell that makes you immune to all mind effecting and information gathering spells is a little overkill just to stop from being scryed. Especially if they scry the fighter in the party.
Antimagic Field isn't a good solution either unless it's stationary, which I don't believe it is. It's personal to my recollection, which means you just shut down all your magic and have to hoof it before the fighters 'port in.
Nondetection and Static Field are both good alternatives that are lower in level, but if the party opposing you is comparable or superior to you in power, they will surpass both protections with ease. Hell, my party surpasses both of those protections on my NPC's with ease.
I find the easiest way to deal with it from an NPC stand point is to grant that there is greater and longer lasting magic out there than current mortals understand. My campaign currently takes place on an artificial plane that is maintained by several elemental foci, the structures housing these foci are warded against scrying, teleportation (only incoming teleports are blocked), and a few mass destruction spells for reasons lost to antiquity.
As for protecting the party from it's long term enemies, I have no good suggestions. I allowed the party's sorcerer to make a private sanctum spell permanent on their base of operations for a sizeable XP cost as it is within the limits of the permanency spell, but there are those enemies who not only have been there personally prior, but can locate people who have been there as well and through either first or secondhand knowledge, could attempt the buff/teleport/annihilation of all the party's hard work.
Private Sanctum works great as long as the opponent hasn't seen the interior before, or you don't intend to be mobile. At least it stops you from getting jumped while your tanks' armor is off. 100 rounds to put it back on? Guess we're going commando style...
Forbiddance cuts the teleport part of of the bargain thus helping greatly but could prove exorbitant, a good investment for any mid to long term base of operations.
Mindblank is great, but it's 8th level and deservedly so. Casting a spell that makes you immune to all mind effecting and information gathering spells is a little overkill just to stop from being scryed. Especially if they scry the fighter in the party.
Antimagic Field isn't a good solution either unless it's stationary, which I don't believe it is. It's personal to my recollection, which means you just shut down all your magic and have to hoof it before the fighters 'port in.
Nondetection and Static Field are both good alternatives that are lower in level, but if the party opposing you is comparable or superior to you in power, they will surpass both protections with ease. Hell, my party surpasses both of those protections on my NPC's with ease.
I find the easiest way to deal with it from an NPC stand point is to grant that there is greater and longer lasting magic out there than current mortals understand. My campaign currently takes place on an artificial plane that is maintained by several elemental foci, the structures housing these foci are warded against scrying, teleportation (only incoming teleports are blocked), and a few mass destruction spells for reasons lost to antiquity.
As for protecting the party from it's long term enemies, I have no good suggestions. I allowed the party's sorcerer to make a private sanctum spell permanent on their base of operations for a sizeable XP cost as it is within the limits of the permanency spell, but there are those enemies who not only have been there personally prior, but can locate people who have been there as well and through either first or secondhand knowledge, could attempt the buff/teleport/annihilation of all the party's hard work.
Last edited:
Spatzimaus
First Post
mkletch: great, it's a nice spell, but it also happens to be double the level of the spell we're trying to counter. Generally speaking, a spell whose only use is to counter should be BELOW the spell it deals with. The Scry-Teleport combo requires level 9, but you won't get Mind Blank until at least 15.
Mind Blank stops scrying cold, AND it does a lot of other stuff, like making you immune to mind-affecting spells. We don't really want all of that. I was just looking for a spell that prevented someone from using Scry to observe you well enough for a Teleport. Nothing else.
In the PHB, I don't think there's anything lower in level than Teleport that does that successfully.
So, let's come up with a hypothetical spell:
Crazy Spatz's Scrambled Viewing
Abjuration
Sor/Wiz 2, Clr 3, Dru 3
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One willing creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: special
Spell Resistance: none
The subject is partially protected from magical surveillance, as is any area within 5' of him. Anyone attempting to Scry the subject directly sees a disrupted image and hears scrambled speech.
If the scrier is familiar with the area in question, he will still recognize it. He can make a Spot check versus the scrambler's Save DC to pick out landmarks or determine the target's actions.
Likewise, the target's voice is still recognizable, even though the content becomes nearly unintelligible; the scrier can make a Listen check versus the scrambler's Save DC to draw any information from the babble.
If the subject is observed indirectly (for example, using Clairvoyance to scan a specific location, or Scrying a nearby person), only the area within 5' of the protected person is scrambled (along with any sounds coming from within the scrambled area).
What do you think? Too much? It still doesn't completely protect you, and you have to cast it on each person for best effect.
Mind Blank stops scrying cold, AND it does a lot of other stuff, like making you immune to mind-affecting spells. We don't really want all of that. I was just looking for a spell that prevented someone from using Scry to observe you well enough for a Teleport. Nothing else.
In the PHB, I don't think there's anything lower in level than Teleport that does that successfully.
So, let's come up with a hypothetical spell:
Crazy Spatz's Scrambled Viewing
Abjuration
Sor/Wiz 2, Clr 3, Dru 3
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One willing creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: special
Spell Resistance: none
The subject is partially protected from magical surveillance, as is any area within 5' of him. Anyone attempting to Scry the subject directly sees a disrupted image and hears scrambled speech.
If the scrier is familiar with the area in question, he will still recognize it. He can make a Spot check versus the scrambler's Save DC to pick out landmarks or determine the target's actions.
Likewise, the target's voice is still recognizable, even though the content becomes nearly unintelligible; the scrier can make a Listen check versus the scrambler's Save DC to draw any information from the babble.
If the subject is observed indirectly (for example, using Clairvoyance to scan a specific location, or Scrying a nearby person), only the area within 5' of the protected person is scrambled (along with any sounds coming from within the scrambled area).
What do you think? Too much? It still doesn't completely protect you, and you have to cast it on each person for best effect.
I have a simple question
*What level are we talking about!!*
Whether it is a problem or not, and what solutions there are, seems to depend greatly on what level campaign we are talking about.
Some non-meta-game thoughts on the matter:
"Studied carefully" means that you have *studied* it. Sure you can do it via scrying, but not just once... It is up to the DM to determine how much 'study' is enough. You can easily say it has to be 1+ hours (scry is 1rd/lvl) so that is a LOT of scrys. That would make it a cool tactic, but one that takes several weeks to set up.
I would say the sameish for 'seen casually'; lets say 15-30 minutes.
'Viewed once' should be *more than 1 second!*
Think about it, the idea is to cast scry, and then teleport the next round, so you get to look for what... 1 second? It would be logical to say you had to view it for at least 30 seconds...
Teleport weight: remember, it is just 50 lbs/lvl. An average 1/2 Orc is almost 200, plus armour, plus weapons, plus rations, plus gear, plus....
You could even make a case for the wizards belongings adding to the weight. Sure, you could probably take a bunch of gnomes....
With these interpretations, it relgates B-S-T into taking days/weeks to set up, or relying on 'viewed once'. This has a 25% chance of error, and as the DM, I would make it a pretty costly error. (okay, maybe a *leeetle* bit of metagaming..
)
Readied/held actions: I don't think I would allow someone to have a readied action through a teleport, but I will have to check to see if that is an interpretation, or a house rule....
.
*What level are we talking about!!*
Whether it is a problem or not, and what solutions there are, seems to depend greatly on what level campaign we are talking about.
Some non-meta-game thoughts on the matter:
"Studied carefully" means that you have *studied* it. Sure you can do it via scrying, but not just once... It is up to the DM to determine how much 'study' is enough. You can easily say it has to be 1+ hours (scry is 1rd/lvl) so that is a LOT of scrys. That would make it a cool tactic, but one that takes several weeks to set up.
I would say the sameish for 'seen casually'; lets say 15-30 minutes.
'Viewed once' should be *more than 1 second!*
Think about it, the idea is to cast scry, and then teleport the next round, so you get to look for what... 1 second? It would be logical to say you had to view it for at least 30 seconds...
Teleport weight: remember, it is just 50 lbs/lvl. An average 1/2 Orc is almost 200, plus armour, plus weapons, plus rations, plus gear, plus....
You could even make a case for the wizards belongings adding to the weight. Sure, you could probably take a bunch of gnomes....
With these interpretations, it relgates B-S-T into taking days/weeks to set up, or relying on 'viewed once'. This has a 25% chance of error, and as the DM, I would make it a pretty costly error. (okay, maybe a *leeetle* bit of metagaming..
)Readied/held actions: I don't think I would allow someone to have a readied action through a teleport, but I will have to check to see if that is an interpretation, or a house rule....
.
