D&D 5E (2014) Buffing monks: with simple changes.

[Garthanos]

So I dug in and what I found is that TM updated his variant in a second video, and in that one he adds in the unarmored defense i mentioned

Do you have a link to that video you refer to as the second video I seen was not for modifying the core class but rather the subclasses. (I paid less attention to that video)

Because the one I linked to is in mid september. (and its only October), he had a much older one

 

[Starfox]

Treeantmonk has an interesting video on this subject.

The core of my own change is to let a monk recover all spend ki when they do the dodge action. You will always start with full Ki, but if you use it all in one fight, having to take a Dodge action is actually quite a big sacrifice for a fighting class.

Edit: Seriously ninja'd.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah I just watched it, it’s an entirely new version, he covers the whole variant again and the subclasses

What is the date on it. The ones I was looking at were just over a month old

 

[Garthanos]

Treeantmonk has an interesting video on this subject.

The core of my own change is to let a monk recover all spend ki when they do the dodge action. You will always start with full Ki, but if you use it all in one fight, having to take a Dodge action is actually quite a big sacrifice for a fighting class.

Edit: Seriously ninja'd.

Same one I posted actually twice LOL his tweaks feel like a very targeted to the math adjustments.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

how about these (*based on treant monk's videos)

Hit die d10
Martial arts allows light or medium armor (enables samurai style characters as monks)
Martial arts die(dice): d6, d8, 2d6, 3d6 (+1 damage for versatile)
Ki DC is based on dexterity (allows more focus on Dex so more flexible builds)
Step of the Wind doesn’t have a resource cost
Quickened healing costs 1 ki point
Stunning Strike has a limited resource pool (once per proficiency per long rest), then costs ki
Stillness of Mind now works as it should (The intent here is your bonus action is still available)
Timeless body also recovers a level of exhaustion on a short rest
Empty Body is a bonus action
Perfect self now adds +4 to Dexterity and Wisdom maxes (like Barbarian stats)


Way of Mercy: No changes.

Way of Shadow: can cast their shadow arts spells once per long rest each, and at level 6 the darkvision spell allows seeing through the darkness spell cast with shadow arts.

Way of the Astral Self: Arms of the Astral Self allow 2 bonus action attacks when you use martial arts, Visage now provides advantage to Wisdom and Charisma checks and saves and doesn’t cost extra ki.

Way of the Drunken Master: Drunken Technique now provides advantage on the first attack with flurry of blows. Tipsy Sway and Drunkard’s Luck no longer cost ki.

Way of the 4 elements: We get Chi points, which equal our Ki points, and fuels our 4 elements features instead of ki.

Way of the Kensei: Kensei’s shot now gives a bonus action ranged attack instead of the d4. Sharpen the Blade now allows combining with magical weapons, to a maximum of +3.

Long Death: Hour of Reaping now allows the Monk to choose the radius of the effect up to 30 feet.

Open Hand: Wholeness of body now restores full hit points and Tranquility now recovers every short or long rest.

Sun Soul: Now Radiant sun bolt works like a 30 foot range for unarmed combat, except radiant damage. Searing Arc Strike is free unless you upcast it, and Searing Sunburst now allows you to cast Fireball with Radiant damage, proficiency bonus times per long rest.

I'm not for a minute second-guessing someone like Treant who I think has far more experience optimizing than myself, however for me that's still a LOT of changes, way more than I'd like.

I'd prefer a much more cut-down list, with just a couple of essential, super-minimalistic changes.

How about these:

• Martial Arts: Bump MA dice up one category (so starts at 1d6 at L1, add 2d6 at L17+)
• Ki: You gain a bonus to ki pool equal to Wis modifier
• Empty Body can be activated as a bonus action
• Perfect self now adds +4 to Dexterity and Wisdom maxes (like Barbarian stats)
• Ki Mastery (L11): Your understanding of using ki improves. PD can now be activated as a reaction to being attacked, SotW gives both Dash & Disengage if used, and FoB gives a 3rd attack.

Honestly I think that would go a long way to solve the monk base class issues. Obv doesn't address specific subclass issues but that's a more involved discussion.

Thoughts & feedback ?

 

[Ancalagon]

Monks are pretty good - if you are actually judging the monk. But since it has no directly comparable class, you're often judging it against something else and it feel lackluster because the other class is better at what that class specializes in - like damage.

the problem with some of these comparison is that they are not comparing to the same class. "oh the rogue has better stealth. Oh the barbarian is more resilient. Oh the wizard is better a control" ... but no consideration that no one can do all that the monk can do.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm also going to mention that the monk has to be a worse warrior than a fighter. Otherwise, with all their other advantages, why would you want to be a fighter?

 

[clearstream]

I'm not for a minute second-guessing someone like Treant who I think has far more experience optimizing than myself, however for me that's still a LOT of changes, way more than I'd like.

I'd prefer a much more cut-down list, with just a couple of essential, super-minimalistic changes.

How about these:

• Martial Arts: Bump MA dice up one category (so starts at 1d6 at L1, add 2d6 at L17+)
• Ki: You gain a bonus to ki pool equal to Wis modifier
• Empty Body can be activated as a bonus action
• Perfect self now adds +4 to Dexterity and Wisdom maxes (like Barbarian stats)
• Ki Mastery (L11): Your understanding of using ki improves. PD can now be activated as a reaction to being attacked, SotW gives both Dash & Disengage if used, and FoB gives a 3rd attack.

Honestly I think that would go a long way to solve the monk base class issues. Obv doesn't address specific subclass issues but that's a more involved discussion.

Thoughts & feedback ?

I agree. His changes are thoughtful, but feel for me more extensive than I'd like.

The kind of rules I feel drawn to are similar to yours, with the following slight tweaks

1. Monks gain 1 extra skill at 1st level.
2. Monks gain 2 extra ki at 2nd level. I feel that is better than tying it to Wis, which just worsens their MADness.
3. Monks gain +1-2 damage per attack in whatever way takes your fancy. A simple approach is to increase their martial die as you suggest, although I have a fondness for a d12 over 2d6. TCoE's Dedicated Weapon is another approach, and also gives access to better ranged weapons.

I tend not to worry about house-ruling tier 4 abilities, seeing as the game is so hairy by that point anyway. Even so, your suggestions relating to Empty Body and Perfect Self look good. What is motivating your thoughts for the 11th level Ki Mastery? Why do you see that as necessary?

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

I agree. His changes are thoughtful, but feel for me more extensive than I'd like.

The kind of rules I feel drawn to are similar to yours, with the following slight tweaks

1. Monks gain 1 extra skill at 1st level.

Do you feel monks are lacking in the skill department ? Between background, class and maybe race I've always found I could get the ones I wanted. Do you mean an extra choice from the existing monk list, or something outside that list ? Either way I'm keen to keep it to only the bare essentials and an extra skill doesn't feel super important to me. Keen to understand your thoughts on it though.

1. Monks gain 2 extra ki at 2nd level. I feel that is better than tying it to Wis, which just worsens their MADness.

Monks already have Wis as their second-most important stat so this wouldn't increase their MAD-ness to my way of thinking. I'm also a sucker for the thematic side of having a wise monk, so it seems fitting to me. Also other things in the game use level+stat such as number of prepared spells etc, so I figured it was an established precedent.
But if other people didn't want that and preferred a flat bonus then that would be fine with me too. I'd probably suggest more than +2 though as I just don't think that is enough to fix the basic issue that nearly everything they want to do uses ki and they get so little of it. Maybe +proficiency bonus ?

1. Monks gain +1-2 damage per attack in whatever way takes your fancy. A simple approach is to increase their martial die as you suggest, although I have a fondness for a d12 over 2d6. TCoE's Dedicated Weapon is another approach, and also gives access to better ranged weapons.

Agreed a small boost is probably all they need. Bumping up one die seemed easiest to me, and harked back to previous editions (I made up my first monk in 1983 ...) where they got higher dice, but d12 would be fine with me too. Again, if people preferred a flat bonus then that would be fine with me as well, or like Treantmonk's suggestion of +1 with versatile weapons. Anything like that would be ok.
Yeah, Tasha's dedicated weapon helps a lot, although I suspect it's going to just mean we see lots more elven monks with flame tongue longswords, but, oh well, can't have everything.

I tend not to worry about house-ruling tier 4 abilities, seeing as the game is so hairy by that point anyway. Even so, your suggestions relating to Empty Body and Perfect Self look good.

I play & GM T4 games so it's definitely something that comes up for me.
I wish I could take credit but those are straight copies of Treant's suggestions. But yeah, they seem excellent to me.

What is motivating your thoughts for the 11th level Ki Mastery? Why do you see that as necessary?

They just don't seem to me to do enough damage in Tier 3 and 4. I was thinking about how most classes get significant bumps to dmg output in these levels, but monks just don't.
Then I found this thread (before it devolved into pages of arguing about shields), scroll down to the second graph of coloured lines and have a look at what happens to the green line - it essentially plateaus. In fact, unless you count the stat bump at L8, and very slight incremental bumps of MA dice increasing, there is no change to the dmg output of the base class from L5 when they get Extra Attack all the way to L20 .....
And that really sealed the deal for me.
They need something. They don't need to be DPR king of the mountain, but they can't just stay almost flat from L5 or L8 either, that's just wrong to me.
That got me thinking .... they get 3 core class abilities at L2: FoB, PD & SotW and they never ever improve, which just seems odd. So, I figured, what if they got an improvement half way through their career, to just make them a bit more efficient, a bit more streamlined.
Nothing over the top, just make them a bit nicer for their "grown up" part of their career.
Anyway, that was my thought process.
What do you think ?

 

[Chaosmancer]

That got me thinking .... they get 3 core class abilities at L2: FoB, PD & SotW and they never ever improve, which just seems odd. So, I figured, what if they got an improvement half way through their career, to just make them a bit more efficient, a bit more streamlined.
Nothing over the top, just make them a bit nicer for their "grown up" part of their career.
Anyway, that was my thought process.
What do you think ?

That's basically what I did on my rewrite, though I did some substantive changes I think overall. I won't post all of the changes I made (some of it was officially adding in options from the Tasha's UA playtest and fixing some obviously broken things like Stillness of Mind)

At level 10, alongside Purity of Body, I did the following

• Flurry of blows is a Bonus Action for 3 attacks instead of 2
• When you use Step of the Wind, increase speed by 10 ft
• You can use Patient Defense as a Reaction
• You get two reactions per Round

Then at level 15 with Timeless Body

• You have a third attack with your normal attack
• Step of the Wind is Dash AND Disengage for the same Bonus Action
• You get Three Reactions per Round

And finally at level 20

• Flurry, Step and Patient Defense (not the reaction version) and Deflect Missiles no longer cost Ki
• You get Four reactions per Round
• +2 to attack and damage for unarmed strikes.

It could be slightly overtuned, but I don't think it is too far off the mark (and I've tended to increase the power of all classes here and there, so parity is mostly being kept I think)