D&D 5E Building a Champion/ Rogue

[Huntsman57]

Which will provide us with the best crit damage output when crit threat range, # of attacks, and sneak attack damage are all figured in? I am figuring on a full 20th level character but humor me. The more levels we put into champion the lower our sneak attack damage, but the more likely we will be on a given round to crit. I'm curious about the sweet spot.

3rd level champion/17th level rogue - most sneak attk dmg with a 19-20 crit range

5th level champion/ 15th level rogue - less sneak attk dmg with 19-20 crit range and extra attack

11th level champion/9th level rogue - even less sneak attk dmg with 19-20 crit range but now 3 attacks

15th level champion/ 5th level rogue - the least sneak attk dmg with 18-20 crit range and 3 attacks

 

[the_cowley]

what is your sweet spot? are you looking for consistent damage? or criting as much as you can? in my opinion, I think either option 2 or 3 would be your sweet spot. 5f/15r for maxing amount of damage a crit sneak does, while 11f/9r will let you crit bit more often

Also, if you really want to go this route, look at the scag duelist subclass for the rouge

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What rogue are you talking about? Standard thief?

Every combination has merits, having two turns in round one also seems a nice benefit, but I believe, you get most out of 2 Attacks. 3 Attacks may be redundand, because you can apply sneak attack only once per turn.
After thinking about everything a bit more I would use option 1, using two short swords and using the occassional second swing or even an action point to cover up for the occasional miss.

 

[pdegan2814]

If you're only looking at the Level 20 build, I'd say 16 levels of Fighter(Champion) and 4 levels of Rogue(Assassin). That gives you the 18-20 Crit range, half your Proficiency bonus(+3 at lvl20) added to Dex checks, meaning your Initiative rolls, 3 attacks per turn plus 1 Action Surge per short rest, and you still get 7 ASI/feat slots. Max your Dex, grab Alert, Sharpshooter and possibly Crossbow Expert, then take Archery as one of the two Fighting Styles you get to choose. You'll also have the main Assassin abilities, Advantage on attacks against targets that haven't taken a turn yet in combat, and auto-crits on surprised targets. The 2d6 Sneak Attack damage is definitely nice, but you can only get that once per round. But with a Dex of 20, you'll have +13 to your Initiative rolls, +17 to your Stealth rolls if it was one of your Expertise skills at Rogue 1, and +13 to Hit with your attack rolls using ranged/finesse weapons. You'll be a MASTER sniper. Get the drop on your targets from a long range(because...Sharpshooter), open fire with a surprise round, burn your Action surge, and take 6 shots with Advantage, each one auto-critting if it hits. If you're feeling lucky, or if you're reasonably sure the target(s) have low AC, take the -5hit/+10dmg feature of Sharpshooter with each attack as well, though that +10 won't double on a Crit. Make sure you're set up somewhere with cover so you can use your Cunning Action to Hide and leave the survivors wondering who the hell just hit them.

Even if you can't get a surprise round, odds are VERY good that you'll be attacking before your enemies, so you'll have advantage on all your attacks in the first round of combat. Burn your Action Surge and go nova on them while you have the upper hand. And if you find yourself in melee, make sure you took Two-Weapon Fighting as the 2nd Fighting Style, so you can use your Bonus Action for an extra strike on your nova round that isn't nerfed(though at that point missing out on 5 HP of damage hopefully won't be a huge deal, if you'd rather take a defense-oriented Style).

Of course, it's one thing to look at how the build functions at the end of its level progression, it's another thing to look at how it will function each step of the way. Remember, you have to actually PLAY the character up to Level 20.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Which will provide us with the best crit damage output when crit threat range, # of attacks, and sneak attack damage are all figured in? I am figuring on a full 20th level character but humor me. The more levels we put into champion the lower our sneak attack damage, but the more likely we will be on a given round to crit. I'm curious about the sweet spot.

If anything, you might want to go 3/17. Going for extra attacks would be pointless, since you can only Sneak Attack once per round and it's unwise to not apply that to the first hit since your second attack will always have a greater chance of missing entirely than it will of scoring a critical hit.

 

[pdegan2814]

If anything, you might want to go 3/17. Going for extra attacks would be pointless, since you can only Sneak Attack once per round and it's unwise to not apply that to the first hit since your second attack will always have a greater chance of missing entirely than it will of scoring a critical hit.

Though extra attacks means a greater chance of ensuring the Sneak Attack damage gets applied every turn. At high Rogue levels, scoring the Sneak Attack is going to yield more damage than a non-Sneak crit, so you want to maximize the chance of getting a Sneak Attack hit every chance you get. In fact, if you're going to be a melee fighter, I'd strongly consider taking the Sentinel feat, for extra chances to make reaction attacks. Sneak Attack damage applies once per turn after all, not once per round.

 

[Huntsman57]

Though extra attacks means a greater chance of ensuring the Sneak Attack damage gets applied every turn. At high Rogue levels, scoring the Sneak Attack is going to yield more damage than a non-Sneak crit, so you want to maximize the chance of getting a Sneak Attack hit every chance you get. In fact, if you're going to be a melee fighter, I'd strongly consider taking the Sentinel feat, for extra chances to make reaction attacks. Sneak Attack damage applies once per turn after all, not once per round.

I believe where you and he are seeing this differently is that he is assuming that you must declare which of your attacks will be the sneak attack ahead of time, whereas what I've assumed, and it appears you do as well, is that I would complete my attack rolls first, and if I critted, I would assign the sneak attack damage to the crit. I'll have to re-read the PHB to confirm which is accurate.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I believe where you and he are seeing this differently is that he is assuming that you must declare which of your attacks will be the sneak attack ahead of time, whereas what I've assumed, and it appears you do as well, is that I would complete my attack rolls first, and if I critted, I would assign the sneak attack damage to the crit. I'll have to re-read the PHB to confirm which is accurate.

Talk to your DM. I can't imagine a DM alive who would allow you to roll all of your attacks first and then decide to Sneak Attack on the crit. Each attack is resolved independently, and this is necessary since you might change your mind about making the second attack depending on the result of the first attack.

Attacks are always made in sequence, and you can choose to apply the Sneak Attack immediately after you hit (so it's not wasted if the first attack misses), but once you've moved on to the second attack you have lost your window of opportunity.

 

[PnPgamer]

I believe where you and he are seeing this differently is that he is assuming that you must declare which of your attacks will be the sneak attack ahead of time, whereas what I've assumed, and it appears you do as well, is that I would complete my attack rolls first, and if I critted, I would assign the sneak attack damage to the crit. I'll have to re-read the PHB to confirm which is accurate.

the phb states along the lines of "when you hit". Meaning that DM has said "yeah you hit the guy, roll for damage" then you can use sneak attack. Same goes for smite of paladin, and some maneuvers done by battle master fighter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When feading the rules correctly, reliable talent kicks in even when you only add half your proficiency bonus to checks. So a champion 7 rogue 11 will at least have a 23 at initiative checks when also having 20 dex and alert. I would advise 12 rogue and 8 fighter for maximzed ability score increases. 3 from fighter, 4 from rogue. This is what I would now advise.
Of course, if you notice that 6 ASIs are enoigh 13 rogue for 1 more sneak attack die is surely good too.