D&D 5E Building a Champion/ Rogue

[PnPgamer]

here are some averages I calculated, assuming everything is a 100% hit:

fighter/rogue levels	average dice damage with crit included
3/17	35,75 (+ stat once)
5/15	36,85 (+ stat twice)
11/9	34,1 (+ stat thrice)
15/5	27,6 (+ stat thrice)

Just add water (your modifier to damage) and apply (multiply by chance to hit) for profit (actual per round.)

Imo, the sweet spot regarding damage is the 11/9 option.
DISCLAIMER: The numbers may or may not be erroneous, and may lack something taken into account. the formula is assuming base weapon of 1d8. formula structure: (weap.avg*crit.avg.dmg.multipl.) * #atk + (sneak.dmg*crit.avg.dmg.multipl.)

 

[Rya.Reisender]

the phb states along the lines of "when you hit". Meaning that DM has said "yeah you hit the guy, roll for damage" then you can use sneak attack. Same goes for smite of paladin, and some maneuvers done by battle master fighter.

Yeah, I'd allow that, but I wouldn't for example allow the rogue to do all attack rolls first and then say he applies Sneak Attack to the crit. When playing "live", I'd ask the rogue after every hit if he wants to apply Sneak Attack. He can either apply it or keep it and risk that he can't apply it at all. When playing-by-post, I'd just rule that the first hit per turn gets sneak attack damage applied unless the player stated otherwise.

 

[Mirtek]

the phb states along the lines of "when you hit". Meaning that DM has said "yeah you hit the guy, roll for damage" then you can use sneak attack. Same goes for smite of paladin, and some maneuvers done by battle master fighter.

that is correct, but each attack is resolved before you get to make the next one.

You do attack 1, see the result and decide what to add before you do attack 2-3. Then you do attack 2, see the result and decided what to add before you do attack 3.

You do not make three attack rolls at once and then decided what to add to which if them.

If roll 1 hits but does not crit, you have to decide if you want to add or hold back in hope you crit with 2 or 3.

If your decided to wait for a later crit and then happen to miss both attacks 2&3, you get no sneak attack this round. You had your chance after the DM told you that attack 1 was a hit and chose not to use it, now you can't add it since attack 1 ended with rolling attack 2

 

[PnPgamer]

that is correct, but each attack is resolved before you get to make the next one.

You do attack 1, see the result and decide what to add before you do attack 2-3. Then you do attack 2, see the result and decided what to add before you do attack 3.

You do not make three attack rolls at once and then decided what to add to which if them.

If roll 1 hits but does not crit, you have to decide if you want to add or hold back in hope you crit with 2 or 3.

If your decided to wait for a later crit and then happen to miss both attacks 2&3, you get no sneak attack this round. You had your chance after the DM told you that attack 1 was a hit and chose not to use it, now you can't add it since attack 1 ended with rolling attack 2

I thought that part would be given, but seemingly you wanted to spell it out thoroughly.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Talk to your DM. I can't imagine a DM alive who would allow you to roll all of your attacks first and then decide to Sneak Attack on the crit. Each attack is resolved independently, and this is necessary since you might change your mind about making the second attack depending on the result of the first attack.

Attacks are always made in sequence, and you can choose to apply the Sneak Attack immediately after you hit (so it's not wasted if the first attack misses), but once you've moved on to the second attack you have lost your window of opportunity.

Except in many games I play in (and I always do this), I always roll all my attacks at once (with damage dice) to help save time.

 

[Mercule]

Talk to your DM. I can't imagine a DM alive who would allow you to roll all of your attacks first and then decide to Sneak Attack on the crit. Each attack is resolved independently, and this is necessary since you might change your mind about making the second attack depending on the result of the first attack.

Attacks are always made in sequence, and you can choose to apply the Sneak Attack immediately after you hit (so it's not wasted if the first attack misses), but once you've moved on to the second attack you have lost your window of opportunity.

Agreed. We don't really even have a conversation about it; it's just understood that the sneak attack applies to the first successful attack in the round. I suppose I'd allow the PC to defer it, if he was moving through a mook to get the the BBEG, but it would feel very wrong and meta-gamish.

I suppose to each his own, but I don't think I'd last long at a table that considered that acceptable and I know a player like that wouldn't last long at mine.

 

[pdegan2814]

Except in many games I play in (and I always do this), I always roll all my attacks at once (with damage dice) to help save time.

And I'm sure a lot of people do this as well, because for most folks they aren't making decisions between attacks, unless they're doing a hit-move-hit-move sequence. But for someone with Rogue or Paladin abilities(smiting) who has to make choices after the attack roll but before the rest of the action, you probably need to roll your attacks sequentially to keep things honest.

 

[pdegan2814]

When feading the rules correctly, reliable talent kicks in even when you only add half your proficiency bonus to checks. So a champion 7 rogue 11 will at least have a 23 at initiative checks when also having 20 dex and alert. I would advise 12 rogue and 8 fighter for maximzed ability score increases. 3 from fighter, 4 from rogue. This is what I would now advise.
Of course, if you notice that 6 ASIs are enoigh 13 rogue for 1 more sneak attack die is surely good too.

Is there an official ruling on this? Reliable Talent specifically says "whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus". Remarkable Athlete doesn't let you add your proficiency bonus, it lets you add HALF of it specifically on Str/Dex/Con checks that DON'T already use your proficiency bonus. If I was the DM there's no way I'd allow what you're suggesting, it's WAY too broken. Is there a Sage Advice article specifically addressing this?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

ok, in the basic rules there is a paragraph about proficiency bonus. It tells us that if you add proficiency bonus, you do not do it more than once, no matter if you double or halve it (so no double dipping of jack of all trades and remarkable athlete :/).
I am not sure if I interpreted it right... at first I thought as you did... you add only half, but the specific language seems to imply that this combination should work. Otherwise, it should also not work with skills the rogue has expertise with, as you add twice your modifier.

 

[pdegan2814]

ok, in the basic rules there is a paragraph about proficiency bonus. It tells us that if you add proficiency bonus, you do not do it more than once, no matter if you double or halve it (so no double dipping of jack of all trades and remarkable athlete :/).
I am not sure if I interpreted it right... at first I thought as you did... you add only half, but the specific language seems to imply that this combination should work. Otherwise, it should also not work with skills the rogue has expertise with, as you add twice your modifier.

The various wordings do leave things a bit muddy, but I'd still rule the way I described earlier. The description of Reliable Talent says "you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection". To me that's clearly meant to mean that it applies to the skills you've chosen to be proficient in. For Expertise, you specifically choose two(then two more) of your "proficiencies", so it too is meant to apply to the skills you've chosen to focus on, making you essentially "really REALLY proficient". Applying Reliable Talent to skills you haven't chosen to be proficient in goes against my reading of the spirit of the ability. Otherwise a character with at least 11 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Bard is going to be BROKEN when it comes to ability check rolls.