D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Alzrius]

Magic and Melee can be more balanced....but you have to use ways that WOTC has started to shy away from.

For example, magic can be more powerful to melee, but it could be damaging to the body, or extremely fatiguing. Or it could require long casting times. It could always require expensive components. It could draw the attention of otherwordly beings, etc. Just because magic is powerful doesn't mean it has to be free.

But as I said Dnd has tended to shy away from these types of costs. They want a wizard that can cast their magic more freely. Which is fine, but then the magic has to be weaker to maintain balance.

This. Back in First Edition, magic took round segments to cast (during which time you could be targeted), if you took damage (or if the environment wasn't conducive to concentrating) you lost the spell without a check, and wizards had a hard cap on the number of spells they could learn at each spell level. When you take away the weaknesses involved with using magic, of course it's going to make the characters using it more powerful. This then quickly degenerates into an arms race, as people try to power-up the non-spellcasting classes to compensate.

 

[Balesir]

Thats because 4E removed all non combat spells from wizards. On the battlefield it is balanced to shoot a 1d6 magic missile or a 1d6 arrow. What makes wizards strong is their non combat versatility. And as 4E ignored non combat this wasn't an issue there.

Oh, FFS, is this another thread where the haters have TP'ed in to take pot shots every time someone has the temerity to mention 4e?? Can't we take a ing break from this, people?

 

[GX.Sigma]

Oh, FFS, is this another thread where the haters have TP'ed in to take pot shots every time someone has the temerity to mention 4e?? Can't we take a ing break from this, people?

What's worse: 4e haters, or 4e-hater-haters?

 

[vrock]

.... that's the inherent problem with magic. It's better than fighting flat out. By definition magic allows people to do things that you can not normally do. Balancing magic with normalcy is doomed from the start, because then magic wouldnt be magic. At least not in the way magic is supposed to be magic. But god help us if we wont still try to balance magic and melee.

And you can probably never hope to balance the two in PvP situations, but this game isn't about PvP. So what it comes down to is the Wizard is more exciting to play at higher levels, and ultimately overshadows the martial classes in and out of combat. If you come at it from the DPS view, or PvP, and fix both classes so that it's a 50/50 split then you've either changed the wizard into something that doesn't feel like a wizard, or changed the fighter into something that doesn't resemble a guy in armor with a big sword.

In my opinion and in my circle, this issue is usually balanced by the players. Those that have fighter concepts play fighters, and those who have wizard concepts play wizards. Sure there is always the coolness factor of classes when editions are in their infancy, or new splats are released, but they always seem to go back to concept driven characters instead of numbers driven characters. And then there is the player personality factor. Some players can play any class and have a blast with it, even when they have nothing of importance to do in a situation, they are still doing some serious role playing. And others just kind of do the minimum no matter what character class they are playing.

 

[mlund]

What's worse: 4e haters, or 4e-hater-haters?

Definitely the former.

 

[Obryn]

What's worse: 4e haters, or 4e-hater-haters?

I really hate this double-standard, and it's steadily eroding my faith in the ENWorld community.

I started a thread a while back where I mentioned I think 3e Fighters are pretty terrible. Several people popped in to disagree - that 3e Fighters were not terrible. This is fine and considered good conversation and debate. And I agree - it is.

But when someone says something like, "there's no non-combat magic in 4e" and another person points out there actually is, all of a sudden it's dog-whistle "4venger" or an implication that the problem is with the person who dared to disagree with the guy who was flat-out wrong.

The idea that it's somehow wrong to dispute someone's facts or challenge their opinions is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Wyckedemus]

The problem in balance is not that wizards can do things that fighters can't. The problem is that fighters CAN'T do things that wizards can't. If the wizard could fly, teleport, and turn things into frogs, it might be balanced with a fighter ability to stand punishment, instantly slay enemies, or being inmune to fear. The problem is: it's the other way around. It's the wizard who is able to stand punisment (through Stoneskin), instaltnly slay enemies (through finger of death) or being inmune to fear (through calm emotion or mind blank). He can also open locks (knock) or stealth (invisibility) like the rogue, and he can even heal (summon monster an unicorn) like the cleric (or limited Wish).

So the problem is not that the wizard can do things that are wizardlish. The problem is that the wizard can do everything. ALL wizards have access to ALL spells and ALL of them can do things that step in the toes of EVERYBODY ELSE. Yes, it's limited to a few times per day, or whatever. But the other classes can't turn people into frogs "just a couple times per day". The wizard can. A wizard with Tenser's transformation, Bull Strength, polymorph self, stoneskin, displacement, mirror image and fire shield will beat the crap of any fighter *in melee combat*. Then he can sneak into the castle being invisible, open the locked chest with knock, and THEN he can proceed to fly, teleport and turn people into frogs.


[/COLOR]

You may be referring to the 3.X Wizard to claim all the above Wizardly accomplishments. Your evidence is invalid, and you are using that evidence in a misleading way. You are forgetting the purpose of this debate.

This is about Wizards and Fighters in D&D Next.

Wizards can't do all those things in D&D Next at the same time. The Concentration rules allow the Wizard to have only *One* (count them, 1) spell effect that requires concentration, and that includes the vast majority of buff spells. So no, a well-built Wizard will *never* take a well-built Fighter in melee combat in D&D Next. If he's concentrating on stoneskin, fine, but the fighter will outclass that with his attacks and damage, and the Fighter has his special parry ability to defend against the wizard's melee attacks.

A D&D Next Wizard has less spell slots than 3.X and earlier editions.

I also disagree with your castle example. The D&D Next Wizard who concentrates on their invisibility spell to get into the castle cannot concentrate on a fly spell at the same time, therefore they have to go through the locked gate. Because it is locked, they have to cast a knock spell that makes very loud noises. Therefore he cannot be sneaky here. Sorry. If he did fly into the castle, *then* turned invisible to give the residents the slip while they looked for him, he still has to make Dexterity checks for them not to hear him. And casting knock to open the door or chest leading to the macguffin tells everyone where he is.

Yes, the Wizard has great versatility. Is it magical? Yes! Is it broken? I don't believe it will be because the fans and designers won't let it. They are already building rules, bound in logical verisimilitude (concentration rules), that support more balanced play. In my opinion.

 

[Manbearcat]

What's worse: 4e haters, or 4e-hater-haters?

Or. What's worse; 4e haters or people who can't stand worthless, redundant, gratuitous thread-crapping...ad nauseum...that is typically grossly misrepresenting things. The kind of thread-crapping which serves no purpose other than to narrow what could be interesting threads on focused topics into inevitable food fights. Whether its about 4e on this message board or about atmospheric physics on another, nothing in internetland is more annoying than people inhibiting interesting dialogue by coat-racking pet topics (eg ARGH 4E!!!!1111).

 

[Ahnehnois]

The problem in balance is not that wizards can do things that fighters can't. The problem is that fighters CAN'T do things that wizards can't. If the wizard could fly, teleport, and turn things into frogs, it might be balanced with a fighter ability to stand punishment, instantly slay enemies, or being inmune to fear. The problem is: it's the other way around. It's the wizard who is able to stand punisment (through Stoneskin), instaltnly slay enemies (through finger of death) or being inmune to fear (through calm emotion or mind blank). He can also open locks (knock) or stealth (invisibility) like the rogue, and he can even heal (summon monster an unicorn) like the cleric (or limited Wish).

You're framing it in terms of class abilities, but I think the real issue is with hit points. Nonmagical characters can essentially only do anything by ablating hit points, which keep inflating with each edition of D&D. Alternate health systems or attack mechanics that bypass hit points are perfectly reasonable for nonmagical characters, but to my knowledge have not been a core part of any version of D&D.

So the problem is not that the wizard can do things that are wizardlish. The problem is that the wizard can do everything. ALL wizards have access to ALL spells and ALL of them can do things that step in the toes of EVERYBODY ELSE. Yes, it's limited to a few times per day, or whatever. But the other classes can't turn people into frogs "just a couple times per day". The wizard can. A wizard with Tenser's transformation, Bull Strength, polymorph self, stoneskin, displacement, mirror image and fire shield will beat the crap of any fighter *in melee combat*. Then he can sneak into the castle being invisible, open the locked chest with knock, and THEN he can proceed to fly, teleport and turn people into frogs.

It's arguably a bigger deal for divine casters who know all spells automatically. That said, I agree to some extent. The fact that wizards can do amazing things isn't a problem, but the ease with which they can access a large number of them can be problematic.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Magic and Melee can be more balanced....but you have to use ways that WOTC has started to shy away from.

What I never understood is why they shied away from them. Magic can do special things, yes, but it should also impose special limitations and costs, and daily spell slots quickly become ineffective at doing that.