D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Nagol]

<snip>

Which is why it always struck me as odd that 3e fans had that particular complaint about 4e. Success in 3e and it's variants is largely a matter of knowing and skillfully utilizing the robust character-building rules, which is necessarily approaching the game from a meta-perspective.

I think one of 3e's faults is the near-requirement to pre-build your character advancement rather than organic advancement during play. Sure, you can do organic advancement, but the PC is unlikely to qualify for any prestige classes of interest because of the relatively esoteric pre-requisites.

That said I like mategame mini-games I can play away from the table. Note the qualifier. I hate playing them when I'm actually in a position to play at the table.

 

[Nagol]

How is it jarring? Its one of the most obvious powers and the fact that you really can't wrap your head around it is perplexing. I've seen it done in football. Its the foundation of the alt-f5 trick which I've seen variants of it done to people in youtube videos. I've had it happen to me in my game and that was completely through narrative dialogue.

I believe you mean alt-f4 and that trick won't work on me no matter how often you try, how sincere you seem, or the apparent reward. Because I know what the key combination actually does I won't fall for it. I "auto-save".

 

[TwoSix]

If someone tries to seduce your character, they roll a seduction check, and the DM tells you that your character is now in a romantic relationship, wouldn't you as a player have a problem with that?

If the seducing character actually has an ability that does that? Not in the slightest.

If the someone rolls to force you to attack them (or not attack them, or make any other choice), how is it different?

It isn't.

Why is DM (or player) judgment something to be avoided?

Because as a DM, I don't want to have to do it unless absolutely necessary. Create NPCs, create encounters, stage battles, sure. Figure out what happens? Constantly trying to figure out how to associate fiction->rules->fiction is tiring. Either we freeform it or the rules should handle as much as possible, and I'll criticize the rules based on how well they do the job of making those assocations easy for me.

DMing should not be a job.

 

[TwoSix]

In terms of CaGI, it doesn't matter how many times the BBEG/former teammate has seen you pull the same tired stunt, they walk up to you anyway because "This time she'll let me kick the football for sure!"

But it isn't the same tired stunt. It's an effect. There's no one presumed way that it's initiated. How you explain how the effect happened is where the roleplaying (and dare I say, the immersion) happens.

 

[Guest 85555]

How is it jarring? Its one of the most obvious powers and the fact that you really can't wrap your head around it is perplexing. I've seen it done in football. Its the foundation of the alt-f5 trick which I've seen variants of it done to people in youtube videos. I've had it happen to me in my game and that was completely through narrative dialogue.

I just have trouble with it. We can debate it all day long and keep offering counter examples, but ultimately it is a matter of perspective. not sure how much more I can break it down for people. I find it hard to swallow that my character has that much control over another. i find it gamey, and it feels very artificial to me. Even in football, you dont have actual control over the other person, and any movement you do get them to make is no where the precision offered by come and get it. In fighting, I am genuinely struggling to come up with ny kind of maneuver that forces someone to move in that manner. Not sure what the alt f 5 trick is, so can't comment on that. Again, if it works for you, that is cool. It just doesn't work for me. It was something that really stuck out when I first encountered it. Something I still dislike.

 

[Nagol]

If the seducing character actually has an ability that does that? Not in the slightest.

Even if it directly against the character concept you developed for the PC?

Chaste paladin?
Devoted husband and father?
different sexual-orientation?

And it not a character ability -- it's a player/GM ability to say "You couldn't help yourself so you made the first move"?

 

[Sunseeker]

DMing should not be a job.

I do enjoy in 4e when one of my players says "I do X, therefore Y happens." and all I have to do as a DM is say "Okay." I make a quick check to be sure there's no obstacles or such to prevent that from happening, otherwise I'm more than happy to oblige my players in letting them narrate the action. I mean that's the players strongest domain, it should be largely in their hands.

In a way, it's almost more fun because instead of one narrative, there are two! I feel like I can really get behind my NPCs in their fight against the players, and the players can get behind their PCs and it's not just two sides duking it out in combat, it's two sides duking out whose story will prevail. It's FUN!

 

[Guest 85555]

But it isn't the same tired stunt. It's an effect. There's no one presumed way that it's initiated. How you explain how the effect happened is where the roleplaying (and dare I say, the immersion) happens.

But that is even more pf a problem for me because the power then doesn't represent anything. It is an effect witing for an explanation. If you are into making things flow like a movie, that probably works. But not everyone plays the game that way.

 

[TwoSix]

Even if it directly against the character concept you developed for the PC?

Chaste paladin?
Devoted husband and father?
different sexual-orientation?

My assumption would be there are penalties to the roll for an unwilling target.

And it not a character ability -- it's a player/GM ability to say "You couldn't help yourself so you made the first move"?

Are we talking about a real power here? Or are we extrapolating for CaGI?

So a metagame resource that can make an external character fall in love with your character? No problem in theory, although the fictional positioning would be interesting to narrate.

 

[Nagol]

But it isn't the same tired stunt. It's an effect. There's no one presumed way that it's initiated. How you explain how the effect happened is where the roleplaying (and dare I say, the immersion) happens.

and the dissonance if it doesn't match with previous history or with the in-game fiction (i.e personality and situation). And it is not required to. When the stunt works for me, the roleplaying would be the same if it is a meta-game ability or a "page 42" bluff check or a simple GM adjudication to the player's stated action.

The GM adjudication is better for me because the GM can respond believably to the situation and character premise.