D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

[Ahnehnois]

Well, that is what market research is for. WOTC has conducted a number of polls and other marketing to discover exactly that. Because knowing that is absolutely crucial for keeping the business afloat.

I haven't seen any results, and I'm skeptical that they could reach most of their base with that sort of methodology.

I'd also point out that Pathfinder is predicated on the idea that most campaigns are pretty similar given their dependence on Adventure Paths for income. So, I don't think the idea is too far out there.

Pathfinder is also dependent on ample third party support through their licensing, their setting is a kitchen sink to allow for radically different styles of game, and their rules system is full of variants and is homebrew-friendly.

Or, as another example, look at the campaign building advice in any of the four DMG's - from AD&D to 4e. They aren't all that different. Bit of a different focus maybe, but, at the end of the day, it's still pretty recognizable from one edition to the next.

But how much does actual play reflect DMG advice?

So, while it might seem that there are radically different campaigns out there, once you get past the minutia, most campaigns aren't vastly different from each other.

Still not seeing that at all.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The thing is... D&D 4e is also an option in a universe of games. Value judgements of how to spend my time are necessary since it isn't infinite. If a product has options in it that I find disruptive then its use drops in priority.

Others can play whatever they like.

I think this proves my case.

Well to be clear, i am not saying I dislike 4E because of come and get it. It isn't my favorite mechanic, and it is one of the complaints I have about fourth edition, but my reason for not liking the game is one the whole it breaks my immersion (largely because of daily and encounter martial powers, and things like healing surges).

Which is interesting because the sheer monotony of pre-4e fighters is inimical to my immersion. A fighter shouldn't be like the energiser bunny - able to perform at peak level almost all the time - good most of the time, yes. But no peaks and troughs and no exhaustion in combat and above all very limited options that you are encouraged to spam breaks my immersion. And here we have a deadlock.

 

[Hussar]

The thing is... D&D 4e is also an option in a universe of games. Value judgements of how to spend my time are necessary since it isn't infinite. If a product has options in it that I find disruptive then its use drops in priority.

Others can play whatever they like.

Wow, really? The non-existence of any problematic powers (as you defined problematic powers) drops a game in priority?

It would be the same as me refusing to play 3e because of Spiked Chains and Double Bladed Swords. It's literally that small of an element in the game.

And now, spend the next four years telling everyone that will listen that not only do you not like Spiked Chains, but, you won't play 3e because they are in the game on the off chance that someone might use a spiked chain.

And then expect people to actually take your point seriously. And get pissed off when no one will actually recognize just how stupid spiked chains are and how the inclusion of spiked chains makes the game bad.

 

[Guest 85555]

Which is interesting because the sheer monotony of pre-4e fighters is inimical to my immersion. A fighter shouldn't be like the energiser bunny - able to perform at peak level almost all the time - good most of the time, yes. But no peaks and troughs and no exhaustion in combat and above all very limited options that you are encouraged to spam breaks my immersion. And here we have a deadlock.

Okay. I am not suggesting what breaks my immersion ought to break yours.

 

[Ratskinner]

I have little to add to your exchange but I do want to say one thing on this. I think people are reading the various playtest materials and making the assumption that with each new release we are seeing an evolution of the core game. I don't think that is true at all. I suspect the core is much closer to the initial release and each packet will have various baked-in tweaks, plugs, turned dials that are not default/basic play. They just aren't broken out and delineated as such so it is assumed that we're seeing core material proliferate and evolve as the playtest goes on.

I believe we've been told almost precisely this...maybe in a L&L? I can't seem to locate it.

 

[Ratskinner]

I don't really have an opinion on it, not having played it, but the old school scene I am plugged to has a somewhat hostile reaction to this game in particular. So I have a feeling the sort of response this sort of design would get among old school players were it part of next might be negative. But not having played it or read it yet I am just going by some of the threads I have seen.

I like Dungeon World, but I agree with your assessment on its impact. However, I think DW does present a few things that D&D might learn from.

 

[Nagol]

I think this proves my case.


<snip>

All it means is I am a failed prospect. WotC couldn't persuade me to include the game in my play rotation unlike multiple other games I do turn towards, nothing more.

 

[Ratskinner]

All valid, and all must be supported in order to meet the 'inclusive' goals. It's a tall order to be sure; probably impossible. WotC probably won't be able to make it a reality. If they can pull this off, I will eat my hat and post a picture for the entire internet to see.

Agreed. Well, except for the hat thing, you're on your own there.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Agreed. Well, except for the hat thing, you're on your own there.

I still get to dictate the terms of hat-eating; I am definitely going to wash it first

 

[Ratskinner]

I think that one of the reasons White Wolf took off initally. It has a more Nar "vibe" (and really only worked as the fluff suggested it would if the table took strong Nar control).

I agree. WW has been accused of turning off a lot of Nar gamers in the 90's by sucking them in with that vibe and then giving them a lousy system to support it. I sometimes suspect that to be true. I know I was profoundly disappointed with the Vampire game.