Can a monk flurry in a grapple?

[justfisch]

Can a monk use his flurry of blows ability as an action in a grapple? Either as an attack your opponent action in a grapple suffering the -4 to hit or as a damage your opponent action in a grapple doing unarmed strike damage.

If I was 8th level, would I be able to make an unarmed touch attack to start a grapple and then the next round, if the grapple worked, flurry for three attacks or damage your opponent actions? I am basing this off the fact that a monk at 8th level would be +6/+1 and would flurry at +5/+5/+0.

cheers,
j

 

[Hypersmurf]

Part of the issue here is that these are things you can do in place of attacks you gain for a high BAB.

Flurry of Blows grants an extra attack, but not for a high BAB; it's not clear that you could use this extra attack to take one of the grappling options.

If allowed, it would permit an unarmed strike (at the usual -4, plus any Flurry penalties that apply), but since 'damage your opponent' is not an attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon, it shouldn't be permissible while Flurrying...

-Hyp.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Can a monk use his flurry of blows ability as an action in a grapple?

I will warn you that this is a hotly debated issue, in part for the reasons Hypersmurf has outlined above. That disclaimer having been made, here is what the FAQ has to say:

Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks? What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat maneuvers?

As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry), the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart’s content.

She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move action).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I will warn you that this is a hotly debated issue, in part for the reasons Hypersmurf has outlined above. That disclaimer having been made, here is what the FAQ has to say:

In the past, I've said Disarm (as long as it's with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon) and Trip (as long as it's with a special monk weapon - which means, in the Core rules, a kama, since it's the only special monk weapon that can trip) are fine, Sunder or Grapple are not; since the Rules Compendium has changed the rules for Sunder, it's now fine to Sunder (as long as it's with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon).

Since Grapple is not performed with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike or Weapon Focus: Nunchaku, for example, will not add to the touch attack roll - for that, you need Weapon Focus: Grapple), initiating a grapple isn't something that can be done as part of a flurry.

-Hyp.

 

[justfisch]

You don't need a weapon to trip an opponent. You also don't need improved unarmed strike. Grapple (and trip) are attack opptions that don't require any special equipment or feats to use. Any creature can make a trip attack or grapple attack.

I read through the flurry description and grapple descriptions again and have come up with the following little tidbits. First, Flurry gives you an extra attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike. Second, while in a grapple you can perform different actions, these actions take the place of an attack or move or standard action as discribed in the grapple action. Third, both the "damage your opponent" and "attack an opponenet" actions take the place of a single attack.

So if I combine all his together, 1st level monk could: flurry in a grapple and either attack your opponent twice or damage your opponent twice. (I guess the monk could also do one of each or pin or use an opponents weapon or break a pin or any combination of actions that only use up a single attack as outlined in the grapple description).

Does this seem correct. It gives the monk a little power boost against things it can grapple successfully.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You don't need a weapon to trip an opponent. You also don't need improved unarmed strike. Grapple (and trip) are attack opptions that don't require any special equipment or feats to use. Any creature can make a trip attack or grapple attack.

That's right. But a monk who is using Flurry of Blows can only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons. Since grapple is not an attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon, it's not something he can do while Flurrying. Since Trip can only be performed with a trip weapon or with no weapon, while Flurrying, he can only trip with a Kama, since tripping with anything else or with no weapon is not an attack with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon.

First, Flurry gives you an extra attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike.

It gives you an extra attack, and while flurrying you can only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

Let's say we have a monk with two attacks who uses Flurry of Blows. He now gets three attacks. He can't attack with longsword-longsword-unarmed strike; it's not just the extra attack that is limited to unarmed strike or monk weapon. All three attacks are restricted. While he is flurrying, he can't attack with the longsword at all.

Third, both the "damage your opponent" and "attack an opponenet" actions take the place of a single attack.

True. But his attacks are limited to unarmed strike or special monk weapons while flurrying. So he can't replace one with an "Attack an Opponent" with a handaxe, nor can he use Damage Your Opponent, since neither are attacks with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

-Hyp.

 

[justfisch]

I think I see the point you are trying to make; that Imp. Unarmed strike is a specific kind of weapon that is not mentioned as being able to be used as part of a trip attemp. I am of the opinion that Imp. unarmed strike is just a feat that lets you be "threatning" 5'. It would think that it would be under the no weapon clause of trip and thus you would be able to flurry.

I think there is also some confusion as to how things might be ordered in the round. Lets say I have a monk (level 8). my initative comes up. I say, ok, I will flurry with unarmed strikes against this orc that is 5' away. First attack, is a trip attempt. Which succedes and my next two attacks are against the orc which is on the ground. Lets say the orc has a 40 con and is not dead yet. The next round I do flurry again and with my first attack I grapple which works because his str is 3. Then I would be able to do two more attack options while grappling, "dmg an opponent" and "attack an opponent".

I believe this is the right order, but you are saying that I can't flurry to begin with because why? Unarmed strike specifically mentions grapple as an option for monks attacking with unarmed strike.

cheers,
j

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think I see the point you are trying to make; that Imp. Unarmed strike is a specific kind of weapon that is not mentioned as being able to be used as part of a trip attemp. I am of the opinion that Imp. unarmed strike is just a feat that lets you be "threatning" 5'. It would think that it would be under the no weapon clause of trip and thus you would be able to flurry.

I'm not talking about Improved Unarmed Strike at all; I'm talking about unarmed strike, whether it's improved or not. Unarmed strike is a weapon; when you trip unarmed, you're making an unarmed touch attack, not an attack with an unarmed strike.

Unarmed strike specifically mentions grapple as an option for monks attacking with unarmed strike.

The monk's unarmed strike class feature allows him to deal lethal or non-lethal damage when attacking with an unarmed strike. It also allows him to deal lethal or non-lethal damage when grappling. That doesn't mean that grappling is an attack with an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

this is a hotly debated issue

Yup. Even the FAQ and RotG tend to stay away from this one. Best to ask your DM.

However, the 3.5 FAQ (if desired) does say:
"Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content."

This answer has some issues because initiating a grapple is an unarmed attack, but not specifically an unarmed strike... and the concensus is that there is a difference between the two. However, this may not be a truism, since both Andy Collins and Skip Williams (and other WotC authors) have used the terms interchangeably.

But this only covers initiating a grapple. Once a monk is in a grapple, then we have a separate issue of whether flurry is similar to TWF'ing or multi-limb fighting (which cannot be done in a grapple), and/or whether it counts as effectively increasing your BAB.

Again, best to ask your DM (or just avoid the whole issue entirely by never trying to flurry in a grapple).

 

[justfisch]

I'm not talking about Improved Unarmed Strike at all; I'm talking about unarmed strike, whether it's improved or not. Unarmed strike is a weapon; when you trip unarmed, you're making an unarmed touch attack, not an attack with an unarmed strike.

The monk's unarmed strike class feature allows him to deal lethal or non-lethal damage when attacking with an unarmed strike. It also allows him to deal lethal or non-lethal damage when grappling. That doesn't mean that grappling is an attack with an unarmed strike.

-Hyp.

That makes no sense. You could flurry with kama but not open handed? So what if the unarmed strike is a weapon, the kama is a weapon. It is an attack with an with an unarmed strike, just because you need to only hit their touch ac and not their full ac shouldn't mater.

From Wizards Website:
"Unarmed Attack/Unarmed Strike: These two terms are used interchangeably to describe an attack with an appendage that is not a natural weapon, such as a human's fist. An unarmed attack usually deals nonlethal damage and provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature being attacked."

I would agree, that starting a grapple is not an attack with an unarmed strike, it is more like getting up in someone's grill. But after the grapple is established I don't see why you couldn't flurry for the attack an opponent option. The damage your opponent option seems more like you are twisting their arm or leg into some painful possistion to cause damage.

cheers,
j