D&D 5E (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Muh]

IMO. It says absolutely nothing about the High Level Martial / Caster divide. PvP is not PvE. To get a true comparison he should have had them run a dungeon.

On a side note, I think everyone is a bit too focused on the initiative. Even losing initiative I suspect the fighters would have won because they can just save against almost anything the casters might want to do multiple times in this encounter. The only difference might be is if the casters have some prep time, even a round might change things.

I feel stupid now, but I completely misread the original post. I thought the experiment involved pitting the different player groups against monsters, but they fought each other... PvP is the height of weird jank in D&D.

Also the new indomitable seems reaaaaally good for this kinda thing. Definitely one of the better changes in the new version.

 

[Mistwell]

Also of importance is it doesn't appear the casters had any prep rounds. There's lots of spells that could have been precast that could have greatly improved their chances.

I may also have missed details on magic items.

Details on the magic items were sparse. There is something there, I just don't know what it was.

 

[FrogReaver]

Details on the magic items were sparse. There is something there, I just don't know what it was.

Yea. If the casters had some decent defensive items and the martials didn’t have too OP of weapons that may also have changed things.

 

[Mistwell]

I feel stupid now, but I completely misread the original post. I thought the experiment involved pitting the different player groups against monsters, but they fought each other... PvP is the height of weird jank in D&D.

Also the new indomitable seems reaaaaally good for this kinda thing. Definitely one of the better changes in the new version.

Yes he notes it's atypical. The fighters simply reliably dishing out a lot of single-target damage quickly in the first two rounds, and being able to make pretty much any save for those rounds, is really what's happening here.

And that would apply just as well to some monster-oriented combat encounters, and not others:

An encounter against many minions and the fighters probably win with their 30 attacks per round.

An encounter against a Big Bad and a couple of strong secondaries and the fighters probably win by taking down the Big Bad in the first round or two with focus fire due to action economy.

But an encounter against a fair number of high hit point foes? I think they probably lose unless the foes are melee-only and there is enough room to pile on Control (topple and slow) and back away as they focus fire on closer foes.

 

[Minigiant]

Also the new indomitable seems reaaaaally good for this kinda thing. Definitely one of the better changes in the new version

Really I always felt that the fighter class should be the high base stat class.
Second wind, indomitable, and action surge all feel like artificial ways to increase the stats temporarily of the fighter class and remain with in the bounds of tradition.

Like a fighter really should have a D12 hit die but it has a d10 and has Second wind as an artificial fix.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

IMO. It says absolutely nothing about the High Level Martial / Caster divide. PvP is not PvE. To get a true comparison he should have had them run a dungeon.

On a side note, I think everyone is a bit too focused on the initiative. Even losing initiative I suspect the fighters would have won because they can just save against almost anything the casters might want to do multiple times in this encounter. The only difference might be is if the casters have some prep time, even a round might change things.

I don't know, especially PVP, majority team initiative means alot if you're talking about some of the weapon mastery effects, closing the distance for opponent's disadvantage (without the feat). Even a whimpy sap weapon, striking first, can start getting real lopsided on an "all in 1 basket", less attacks for big effect character. Also, emanations and AoE start getting taken off the table if most the martials are going first.

But I do think initiative means more in this PVP scenario. Fun exercise, but yeah, probably doesn't reflect an in-dungeon encounter well

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

A very roundabout reasoning I have. Basically going first, with debuffing masteries (even though we are talking dmg) Does significantly boost your own dmg (not just survivability), because it craps on the opportunity for the opposition to land their own debuffs/control, it just makes their chances that much worse

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

On a side note, I think everyone is a bit too focused on the initiative. Even losing initiative I suspect the fighters would have won because they can just save against almost anything the casters might want to do multiple times in this encounter. The only difference might be is if the casters have some prep time, even a round might change things.

I think that initiative was pretty pivotal for this challenge. The entire point of Treantmonk's team was to prioritise and remove other characters before they got to act, because a high-level caster is capable of reshaping the battlefield itself. Targeting the Champions with spells would likely be a low priority compared to changing the situation itself.
Treantmonk's team is built to cover some of the possible eventualities (species choice to get multiple misty steps for bypassing barriers and extra charge range for example.) But the team is designed to win a fight on an open field, with opponents within rush distance, and a high level caster can change that situation drastically. Even just providing cover with a wall spell could make things much harder.

 

[ECMO3]

The opponents probably thought this was a chess match, but Treantmonk reduced it to checkers and then beat them at it.

Agree with this. I will say if you optimized 4 full casters, building them specifically for this arena against 4 Champions, I think you could win this, but 4 casters built for general optimization it is not really even a contest most of the time.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think that initiative was pretty pivotal for this challenge. The entire point of Treantmonk's team was to prioritise and remove other characters before they got to act, because a high-level caster is capable of reshaping the battlefield itself. Targeting the Champions with spells would likely be a low priority compared to changing the situation itself.
Treantmonk's team is built to cover some of the possible eventualities (species choice to get multiple misty steps for bypassing barriers and extra charge range for example.) But the team is designed to win a fight on an open field, with opponents within rush distance, and a high level caster can change that situation drastically. Even just providing cover with a wall spell could make things much harder.

Rush Distance? My understanding was that all the champions were Bow users.

What wall spell are you proposing the caster uses?