D&D 5E (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[TorgoTheWhite]

Yes, the extra fighting style does more than you may think, just not in a flashy way. Imagine if 2 of those champions are duelist with protection fighting style... you sure better split those two up (except without heavy metagaming you would not immediately split them up). Also, again, in a 5v5 PC duel, initiative advantage is huge. Still personally lukewarm on graze... but in a PC duel with prevalent temp AC boost strategies.. I could see it doing good work.

 

[Minigiant]

At level 15+ Champion fighter is the highest damage PC we have had using the 2024 rules to date by far.

Champion Fighter is like those video game RPG classes that are boring and lame at low levels and dang near brokenly OP at high level.

 

[Mistwell]

Every level of Champion is both 1) something really useful, and 2) boring.

Improved crit (twice)
Advantage on Init
Added Fighting Style
Heroic Inspiration every turn
Limited regeneration and advantage on death saves

It's almost all passive abilities.

 

[Weiley31]

I wonder how much better this would've gone for the fighters if they had a better subclass than champion.

Champion is arguably the best subclass in 2024 and I think Champion, at this level, is hands down the best subclass for this particular endeavor. Superior critical + Heroic Inspiration + extra fighting style beats anything another fighter subclass is going to bring.

I just recently rolled up a level 12 Fighter Champion two weeks ago at one bud's game hes's DMing and,.....holy cow...

I GET IT!

Still love the Battlemaster as fave fighter subclass.

 

[Zardnaar]

No surprise. High damage can't reliably save or suck them.

Similar to high level 2E one.

 

[Distracted DM]

Yes, but how much hits can casters take?

Casters don't have d4 hit die anymore, though. That gap closed a bit when wizards etc were upped to a d6.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I wonder how much better this would've gone for the fighters if they had a better subclass than champion.

This challenge is leveraging the initiative and action system, and so Champion's Remarkable Athlete and heroic inspiration is doing most of the heavy lifting. No cover, no tactical opportunities. No exciting damage spikes or effects, just reliable damage that you can look at the opponent's HP and initiative position and calculate who you can reliably take down before they get to take their go, plus being just resilient enough to do the same next round.

The opponents probably thought this was a chess match, but Treantmonk reduced it to checkers and then beat them at it.

 

[Minigiant]

This challenge is leveraging the initiative and action system, and so Champion's Remarkable Athlete and heroic inspiration is doing most of the heavy lifting. No cover, no tactical opportunities. No exciting damage spikes or effects, just reliable damage that you can look at the opponent's HP and initiative position and calculate who you can reliably take down before they get to take their go, plus being just resilient enough to do the same next round.

The opponents probably thought this was a chess match, but Treantmonk reduced it to checkers and then beat them at it.

I always thought up the simulation of a 4 person party assualting the stronghold of a BBEG of the 4 basic classes.

The wizard and cleric have created traps and minions to grind them down and sit in the throne room ready to ignite a high level spell to wipe them out while drained.

The fighter?
The rogue?

The party opens a random door. SURPRISE! Slash Stab Cut. 1-2 party members down and half the rest is swarmed by minions.

The casters might go first. The martials will. So the martials are picking the situation when their first turn is high impact. When the fighter has straight access to the highest threat. When the rogue has straight access to an escape route

 

[FrogReaver]

This challenge is leveraging the initiative and action system, and so Champion's Remarkable Athlete and heroic inspiration is doing most of the heavy lifting. No cover, no tactical opportunities. No exciting damage spikes or effects, just reliable damage that you can look at the opponent's HP and initiative position and calculate who you can reliably take down before they get to take their go, plus being just resilient enough to do the same next round.

The opponents probably thought this was a chess match, but Treantmonk reduced it to checkers and then beat them at it.

Also of importance is it doesn't appear the casters had any prep rounds. There's lots of spells that could have been precast that could have greatly improved their chances.

I may also have missed details on magic items.

 

[FrogReaver]

I thought this was an interesting experiment and worth noting here. Again, nothing conclusive. But it does make me suspect the issue with the high level Martial / Caster divide might not be as meaningful as previously commonly thought.

IMO. It says absolutely nothing about the High Level Martial / Caster divide. PvP is not PvE. To get a true comparison he should have had them run a dungeon.

On a side note, I think everyone is a bit too focused on the initiative. Even losing initiative I suspect the fighters would have won because they can just save against almost anything the casters might want to do multiple times in this encounter. The only difference might be is if the casters have some prep time, even a round might change things.