D&D 5E Caution in Too Much Fun

[Lanefan]

Great sessions are great because they stand out from the rest; and they're also unpredictable in when and how they will occur. Much like a baseball game - when the first pitch is thrown there's no way of knowing whether it'll end up a 1-0 pitchers' duel or a 12-9 slugfest or a 10-0 blowout or a dull 3-2 game rife with fielding errors.

Some ball games end up great and memorable, others dull and boring, and the vast majority of them are in the middle somewhere. The same is true of D&D sessions.

Attempting to force any given session - never mind all of them - to be "great" is IMO a fool's errand.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I would hope "4 hours shopping RP" is hyperbole, because please lord no.

Well, as long as there's more to it than just visiting the fitting rooms, it can actually be an interesting thing.

It requires that the various shopkeepers be actual NPCs, who interact, who offer deals and maybe jobs, who maybe reveal secrets or admit their fears in furtive whispers. The players need to be engaged, looking for discounts, scoping out the best places to buy, considering things like meals and personal comfort, etc. The DM needs to be engaged, throwing in rumors and gossip, making the haggling process entertaining rather than dull, richly texturing the sights and smells and sounds, throwing in unexpected surprises or random meetings with friends or foes in a place where cordiality is expected, etc.

Four hours is still quite a long time, I doubt I could keep things interesting for that entire time. But a couple hours, if it's an actually rich experience, is perfectly workable--and I've at least gotten close to that before with actual sessions.

 

[Oofta]

My theory is that the folks in those streams are primarily actors acting for an audience. And shopping is an easily improvised activity that gives them spotlight time where they can act their hearts out in character without having to worry about being the guy that is dominating the plot and also allows the other actors some downtime to rest before their next time in the spotlight.

Many of the odd choices that are made in AP streams/podcasts make sense if you think of them as a troupe of actors playing roles in an improvised story rather than players in a game.

I don't remember any CR shopping trip taking a literal 4 hours, it's an exaggeration. They do at times get into levels of detail I would not usually bother with, but I have had sessions where the majority of the roughly 4-hour session had no combat or complex encounters where dice were needed.

You may not like CR, you may not like some of their extemporaneous bits, that doesn't mean they're doing it as filler. My current group loves to ham it up and RP, probably more than I do. Those sessions where nothing really gets accomplished? They love them. Different people have different preferences.

 

[Asisreo]

I'm not sure I see an interesting decision point in your example since the character still can't afford the thing they want even after making the case for a discount. They're exactly where they started the scene. Nothing has really changed. This situation could be restructured to have more stakes and be more fun in my view.

Sorry, the interesting decision is implicit. Should they continue to haggle for a lower price, possibly upsetting the shopkeeper and further wasting time? Or do they stop now and not ever get a chance to afford both?

Or perhaps, they look in their inventory to see if they can offer an enticing trade based on having a conversation with the shopkeep and figuring out what they want.

 

[iserith]

Sorry, the interesting decision is implicit. Should they continue to haggle for a lower price, possibly upsetting the shopkeeper and further wasting time? Or do they stop now and not ever get a chance to afford both?

Or perhaps, they look in their inventory to see if they can offer an enticing trade based on having a conversation with the shopkeep and figuring out what they want.

I see. How long exactly do we want to play this out while the other four people at the table look on and start thumbing through their phones?

Consider an alternative structure, building on the details of your example: The shopkeeper states the price of the lightning sword. The character can't afford that so the player describes the character haggling and how, which may even play into the character's personal characteristics and be worth Inspiration. The DM decides this calls for an ability check which the player fails. The shopkeeper says they can't offer the sword at the requested price, but could sell the PC an amulet said to be useful against undead which they can take or leave at a price the PC can afford. The player, knowing that the amulet may be useful on the next adventure, now makes a decision to buy the amulet or pass and save up for the sword then we all move on.

Two decisions - one of them quite meaningful in context - and an ability check, possible Inspiration, plus whatever color is established in the interaction. All done in about a minute. I would prefer this a great deal more than the alternative you present.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Well, as long as there's more to it than just visiting the fitting rooms, it can actually be an interesting thing.

It requires that the various shopkeepers be actual NPCs, who interact, who offer deals and maybe jobs, who maybe reveal secrets or admit their fears in furtive whispers. The players need to be engaged, looking for discounts, scoping out the best places to buy, considering things like meals and personal comfort, etc. The DM needs to be engaged, throwing in rumors and gossip, making the haggling process entertaining rather than dull, richly texturing the sights and smells and sounds, throwing in unexpected surprises or random meetings with friends or foes in a place where cordiality is expected, etc.

Four hours is still quite a long time, I doubt I could keep things interesting for that entire time. But a couple hours, if it's an actually rich experience, is perfectly workable--and I've at least gotten close to that before with actual sessions.

It also helps a lot of the pc's aren't just shopping for adventuring gear or upgrades weapons. The should be visiting contacts, temples, old friends, strange marketplaces and other areas of personal interest to them.

Spending hours fleshing out the contents of your backpack is a waste of table time (though I've seen that happen too.)

 

[MarkB]

I would like to start a thread discussion about the dangers of "too much fun."

But how can someone have "too much fun?" Especially when "fun" is the primary goal of the game? I think people make a point of macimizing/optimizing fun for both themselves and other players/DMs in the game. While a noble cause, I believe instantaneously thinking about maximizing fun could lead to disappointment later down the road.

Even if you absolutely adore what you do and your players are having a blast session-by-session, if that kind of fun is unsustainable, you'll end up crashing and burning in more than one way.

I think it's best to not come into the game with the mindset that you must "maximize" or "optimize" fun, but rather moderate the fun and boring moments in your game to a tolerable degree.

Sometimes, your shopping session needs to take 4 hours even if the player that loves combat has to wait. Sometimes, you need to have a combat slog on for a round or two longer. Sometimes, your players need their agency removed. Sometimes, your DM has to sit through your character searching every corner in the room.

Not to intentionally make your players/DM feel bad or to reign superiority over them. But because these duller moments serve purposes under the surface to make the fun more sustainable.

That 4 hour shopping session might give the DM enough time to get that plothook entwined with your characters. That long boring combat might let a player who isn't quite familiar with their character start to understand their battle strategy without being overwhelmed. The time your character is mind-controlled or involved in a sudden unfortunate event might be needed to keep a cool narrative pacing. Your player searching every corner might have them actually find that secret door you worked on that was hidden.

Yes, there are ways to avoid these situations and it is usually favorable to do so. But hobbyists needn't obsess over it, get burnt out, or find themselves unable to keep up. Just relax and enjoy your fun responsibly.

Fun isn't a finite resource that you can expend or retain as a DM. If you choose to provide less fun in today's session, that doesn't mean there will be a larger reserve available for next session.

Have the fun you can in the time you have. If you miss it, it's gone.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I won't judge a group for taking a session to shop in the the same way I don't want WOTC to judge me for talking to a town guard.

I don't want to commit the sin of a telling people to skip so called "boring" parts in the name of "getting to the fun."

 

[iserith]

I won't judge a group for taking a session to shop in the the same way I don't want WOTC to judge me for talking to a town guard.

I don't want to commit the sin of a telling people to skip so called "boring" parts in the name of "getting to the fun."

Notably, expressing one's own preference or experience - or even telling someone they wouldn't enjoy certain things about their game - isn't the same as telling someone else to do something (or not do something). It's okay in my opinion to make judgments. It's just not okay to try to enforce that judgment upon others (unless you're an actual judge!). Not to mention a waste of time.

Talking to town guards is both wrong and bad though.

 

[Laurefindel]

I don’t think there is such a thing as too much fun, but I agree that the level of intensity, pace, and mood of the game can - I’d even say must - vary from high to low.

But for me this is all in service of “fun”