Changeover Poll

Changeover Poll

  • Complete Changeover: All 4E played now, no earlier editions of D&D

    Votes: 193 32.2%
  • Largely over: Mostly 4E played now, some earlier edition play

    Votes: 56 9.3%
  • Half over: Half 4E played now, half earlier edition play

    Votes: 32 5.3%
  • Partial Changeover: Some 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 18 3.0%
  • Slight Changeover: A little 4E played now, mostly earlier edition play

    Votes: 21 3.5%
  • No Change: Tried 4E, went back to earlier edition play

    Votes: 114 19.0%
  • No Change: Never tried 4E, all earlier edition play

    Votes: 165 27.5%

I wonder what a changover poll from 1e - 2e would have looked like in a similar time frame?

I've never seen actual numbers, but the anecdotal evidence I've always heard is that 2E cost D&D approximately 50% of its audience at the time. In retrospect the rules changes between 1E-2E seem almost trivial, so I'm not terribly surprised by these results.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've never seen actual numbers, but the anecdotal evidence I've always heard is that 2E cost D&D approximately 50% of its audience at the time. In retrospect the rules changes between 1E-2E seem almost trivial, so I'm not terribly surprised by these results.

Which seems weird... Because I remember going to lots of cons back in what I guess was the height of 2e, and the games were mainly 2e with a few 1e games every so often... (We called them the old guys... :P)
 

I sincerely hope the results of this poll are not accurate, because if they are, I'm afraid Hasbro will take the rights to D&D, lock them up, and thus we'll see D&D go the way of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Obviously, I do not want that.

By this poll that would only effect 1/3 of the players, which are the 4E players. 3E and previous edition players already have no official support. For those sticking with 3.x there is the OGL which means that Hasbro can't entirely lock D&D away.
 

If 2 out of 3 people are refusing to go with 4E, if this poll is accurate, then Hasbro has suffered a colossal loss of it's base from the game it supports. I cannot see them taking no action, not with results of this magnitude.

I'm really curious how this compares with the transition from 1E to 2E and then the transition from 2E to 3E. I know that from my own experience from the previous transitions that this time it certainly seems very different.

Back with 1E to 2E, most of the crowd I gamed with it dismissed it as a money grab and there were a number of grumblings about dropping things like the assassin, removing the "demon" and "devil" names, etc. Around that same time I moved away to grad school and gravitated elsewhere (Muds) for a long stretch. When I eventually came back to D&D in 1993, I worked with an odd mesh of OD&D, 1E and some 2E rules I had picked up for firearms and psionics. Eventually I migrated my campaigns mostly to 2E because after giving the rules a more serious look I decided that things seemed to be cleaned up so it wasn't just a money grab. I actually see the 2E days as the high point of D&D. Even though 3E proved to be a much better system from a mechanics point of view, I just loved all the campaign settings that TSR put out, especially the more grown up ones like Planescape with its philosophers with clubs arguing about the nature of existence.

Then along came 2.5 (Combat & Tactics, Skills and Powers, Spells and Magic). We switched right away to this and rode it through the end of TSR and beyond.

Then came 3E. We switched right away again. 3E was the only game in town and again it seemed like a huge improvement on the game although we did have some reservations about the more rapid rise in levels compared with previous versions.

We again switched right away to 3.5. There were a few things we've had to houserule since that switch, but otherwise we were happy to make the switch.

And then came 4E and it fell completely flat. We tried it, we played through a few levels and decided it's simply not something we want to use for our "serious" games. In fact, it's fallen completely off the table and radar. Instead we've started playtesting Pathfinder and we're much happier. It's not like the 2E days when we initially dismissed 2E as being a money-grab. We didn't have a problem with how 2E played - it just didn't seem like there was enough of an improvement to justify the version. It felt more like 1.5 then a full edition upgrade.

So 4E is the first version where our group has seriously balked over changes to mechanics and the tone of the game. I guess we're not the only group. Will we eventually change our minds (heck, it took me more than 4 years to make the 1E to 2E transition)? I'm doubtful. This time we have more options available thanks to the OGL and now Pathfinder so it looks less likely that we'll eventually make the transition to 4E.

What does this mean for WoTC and D&D? I don't know. EnWorld is probably not completely representative of the D&D audience. People here tend to be
DMs and/or serious players who are more immersed in the hobby. In my case, they're losing someone who spends a lot on the hobby. On our gaming shelves we have most of the D&D product lines from TSR and WoTC from 1E through the end of 3.5. It can't be good for WoTC to lose too many people like us.
 
Last edited:


I rather think of it as paying the price for trying to close 4e. They went so far afield from 3e that it was inevitable they would end up competing with it.

I don't think what they did is any further then many of the other "alternate" D20 systems out there. Like Iron Heros or Arcana Unearthed, etc...

You can still make stuff for 4e using the OGL, you just can't use any of the IP parts.

You CAN use the IP with the GSL, which I'd say is a bit more open then the above games...

But I would generally agree I think one of their biggest issues is the GSL, and people fearing the GSL and what it meant. (Whether that fear is warrented or not is another discussion.)

I think part of the proplem is that GSL supports products directly for D&D and nothing else... And a lot of companies had already left this model in favor of their own alternate system ideas.

Shrug. I think it'll work itself out.
 

But I would generally agree I think one of their biggest issues is the GSL, and people fearing the GSL and what it meant. (Whether that fear is warrented or not is another discussion.)

It's not about the GSL, it's about the fact that the game mechanics and game IP are a radical departure from 3e.

If the GSL were perfect and released on time, it wouldn't change the fact that "4e doesn't feel like D&D."

You can't possibly attribute the "Tried it, changed back..." crowd to the GSL situation. Come on. :confused:
 


It's not about the GSL, it's about the fact that the game mechanics and game IP are a radical departure from 3e.

If the GSL were perfect and released on time, it wouldn't change the fact that "4e doesn't feel like D&D."

That's subjective. To me it does feel like D&D. Maybe because I like 4e I see more fo the similarities and the path the game took to get where it is then you do? I dunno.

You can't possibly attribute the "Tried it, changed back..." crowd to the GSL situation. Come on. :confused:

Not all of it sure, but I can contribute a good part of it to GSL in the lack of a lot of 3rd party support. One thing 3rd party support did for 3e was fill in parts that people felt were lacking giving them more incentive to switch.

Missing that 1st edition feel? Necromancer is here for you pal!

Not enough spells yet to please you? Random 3rd party company has a boatload of em!

I think if the GSL had managed to attract more 3rd party players, I think they would have been quickly jumping at the chance to fill in the "gaps" people were claiming they had issues with in 4e. Those gaps being filled probably would have tempted a lot more people to stay. (And still could if they get the GSL into an attractive state...)

But I could be completely wrong, what do I know?
 

I can only speek for myself, but no amount of 3rd party support would have made me accept powers and healing surges. Or class roles. Or the way magic items are done. Or core tieflings and dragonborn. The list goes on and on, because I can rationally summarize why 4E doesn't feel like D&D to me. Basically, to win me over, a 3rd party supplement would have to change about 50% of the game or more - so why bother?
 

Remove ads

Top