D&D 5E Changing Sneak Attack to Light Weapons

[GlassJaw]

Because it's a fill sized sword and it makes zero sense that it should be SA capable when a club isnt. Moreover, the rapier is already to blame for a lot of STR dumping anyway because it's a d8 and finesse.

It only "makes zero sense" if you are bringing a preconceived notion about the narrative of what sneak attack actually is.

If a mercenary class had an ability called "Bypass Defense" or a Thug class had "Dirty Hit", or the history behind backstab/sneak attack didn't exist, I guarantee there wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Horwath]

For us it was just the visuals and thematic. That and lack of options for ranged attack with strength without house-rules are already bad. A strength based rogue throwing daggers just didn't seem to keep up with that longbow wielding elf rogue.

some solution can be composite longbows.
you would not get accuracy because it would still be based on dex, but you could get higher base damage depending on minimum strength.

20 str bow: 2d6
18 str bow: 1d12
14 str bow: 1d10
10 str bow: 1d8
8 str bow: 1d6
below 8 str: 1d4

so your 20 str, 12 dex fighter might have and option with:
thrown weapon; +5 attack,(not counting proficiency), 1d6+5 damage, 30ft range, or
longbow; +1 attack, 2d6+1 damage, 150ft range,

in 30ft, it would still be better to use throwing weapons, but if you had a dragon or similar monster, it is a nice option to have.

 

[Oofta]

problem with rapier, is that devs in their infinite wisdom decided that "finesse" property is as powerful as "versatile". While versatile is more or less an useless ribbon ability that is used in 1 out of a 100 attacks with versatile weapon.

If "light" costs a lower damage die, then "finesse" should also.

Then you would have:

Rapier, 1d8 finesse
Longsword, 1d10 versatile (1d12)
short sword, 1d6, light, finesse

Yeah, but then you need a 1d14 for your greataxe. Those are tough to come by.

 

[Oofta]

some solution can be composite longbows.
you would not get accuracy because it would still be based on dex, but you could get higher base damage depending on minimum strength.

20 str bow: 2d6
18 str bow: 1d12
14 str bow: 1d10
10 str bow: 1d8
8 str bow: 1d6
below 8 str: 1d4

so your 20 str, 12 dex fighter might have and option with:
thrown weapon; +5 attack,(not counting proficiency), 1d6+5 damage, 30ft range, or
longbow; +1 attack, 2d6+1 damage, 150ft range,

in 30ft, it would still be better to use throwing weapons, but if you had a dragon or similar monster, it is a nice option to have.

I just allow people to buy strength-based bows so it's not as big an issue in my game, it was more look-and-feel than anything.

But as others have stated, even if you just open it up to every weapon it's not going to have much of an effect.

 

[Horwath]

Yeah, but then you need a 1d14 for your greataxe. Those are tough to come by.

in this calculation, both great sword/axe default to 2d8.
Those 2handed strength guys need some love.

 

[Horwath]

I just allow people to buy strength-based bows so it's not as big an issue in my game, it was more look-and-feel than anything.

But as others have stated, even if you just open it up to every weapon it's not going to have much of an effect.

I'm, not a fan of pure str based bows(for attack and damage bonuses), I would like to keep those exclusive for thrown weapons, to give them a reason to be in the game

also, as we have 1d8 finesse, we should have 1d8 thrown(30/120ft range) weapon.

 

[Oofta]

I'm, not a fan of pure str based bows(for attack and damage bonuses), I would like to keep those exclusive for thrown weapons, to give them a reason to be in the game

also, as we have 1d8 finesse, we should have 1d8 thrown(30/120ft range) weapon.

The problem with thrown weapons is the limit to 1/round. Not as important to this conversation and rogues, but strength based PCs are kind of SOL for ranged attacks without changing something.

As far as strength based bows ... that's a whole other topic. I think all longbows should be strength based because traditionally that had pull weights of 150 or more.

I think dex based characters could use a nerf the way it is.

But, eh. It's a game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

One comment I would like to add that I just thought of for the WLR club members, if you impose the STR mod penalty for dumping STR to less than 10, it would offset the benefit gained by finesse. Maybe just for damage even?

So, a STR 8, DEX 18 finesse attacker might be +4 to attack still, but only +3 to damage due to the -1 STR mod.

Just a thought. I know a lot of groups (mine included) house-ruled finesse to attack rolls only, not damage.

Otherwise, there is no reason to not take rapier as is. It allows you to dump STR (I wouldn't myself, but apparently others do...) and does more damage than other finesse weapons in melee. You're only hurting yourself if you don't take it.

Keep in mind also for TWF, you can have a SA-weapon (light) as your second weapon and use SA with that. If you need to use your bonus action for cunning action before you attack, make the light (second weapon held) your weapon for the attack action and still benefit from SA. If you don't need your bonus action, you can TWF and attack with both. Sure, the rapier would no longer be a SA-weapon, but the other still is.

Personally, I agree with a lot of people that given the nature of SA in 5E, really any weapon could be used. However, the offset for the ability (which is great, let's not fool ourselves), is restricting it to light weapons it makes thematic sense and balances.

Actually, given the threads about Assassinate, maybe that could be an aspect of the Assassinate feature: for that opening strike you can apply your SA dice regardless of the weapon? I kind of like that myself...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because it's a fill sized sword and it makes zero sense that it should be SA capable when a club isnt. Moreover, the rapier is already to blame for a lot of STR dumping anyway because it's a d8 and finesse.

Sure, that’s a great argument for opening up the SA weapon options to include all light weapons, or even just any non-heavy weapon.

But there is no reason on any world you can’t backstab someone or fight in an underhanded manner to lethal effect or whatever with a rapier (or a longsword, for that matter).

For us it was just the visuals and thematic. That and lack of options for ranged attack with strength without house-rules are already bad. A strength based rogue throwing daggers just didn't seem to keep up with that longbow wielding elf rogue.

What I’ve been trying to sell to my group is just making bows finesse, so you can use STR with it.

 

[Horwath]

The problem with thrown weapons is the limit to 1/round. Not as important to this conversation and rogues, but strength based PCs are kind of SOL for ranged attacks without changing something.

As far as strength based bows ... that's a whole other topic. I think all longbows should be strength based because traditionally that had pull weights of 150 or more.

I think dex based characters could use a nerf the way it is.

But, eh. It's a game.

Few USa ago, there was a fighting style that resolved this for thrown weapons.

dex in d&d is described as precision for ranged and finesse weapons, for both attack and damage.
I am completely ok with it.

I would sooner add minimum str for ALL weapons and armour and have str or dex for ALL melee and thrown weapons attack&damage calculation and dex for ALL ranged weapons.

You want to use dex or str as a stat for greatsword? sure, when you have 16 strength you can.