D&D General Character Classes should Mean Something in the Setting

[Steampunkette]

That isn’t true. I don’t think it was ever actually true, but it certainly isn’t now. In Eberron, divine magic comes from faith.

Vol isn’t the center of worship, either. She’s the head of the main clerical structure of the faith, but most actual practice is based in ones community.

The Flame grants power because it is the combined souls and power of all the faithful who have ever died in service to the ideals of the Silver Flame, so it’s a bit different from any other faith in Eberron.

Even if we ignore what I wrote above, they aren’t “atheists”, they’re just atheists. They don’t believe the gods are real. The end. And they very well might be right.

That has nothing to do with how generic D&D is, though. A more accurate way to put it is, D&D comes with a whole wide swath of options, such that you can build pretty much any kind of world and game you want with those parts.

Erandis Vol

Erandis Vol, usually known as Lady Illmarrow or the Lich Queen, is the last heir of the House of Vol, the elven bloodline that bore the Mark of Death. Half an elf and a half a dragon, Erandis was the hope of many to end the war between the dragons and elves. She is believed dead by most, but was...

eberron.fandom.com

The statistics provided in both editions represent Lady Vol in her current state. If she achieves her apotheosis, becoming the Queen of Death, her powers will rival that of a god and bring about an apocalypse for the elves and dragons.

Apotheosis means "Become a God". It was her original goal.

Anywho! On to the D&D thing: Yes. It absolutely DOES have everything to do with how generic D&D is.

No other fantasy has Gelatinous Cubes and Ochre Jellies. No other fantasy has Mimics and dragons divided by Chromatic, Metallic, and Gemstone. No other fantasy has Aboleths and Mind Flayers, Vancian Spellcasting, the Hand and Eye of Vecna, The Sphere of Annihilation.

And as much as you strip out, BadWolf, MD, you've got to realize that those things are a part of something you're stripping away to get at the bits you want and need.

And once you've stripped away enough that it's easier to describe what you -haven't- removed than what you -have- removed, you've gotta know you're not playing D&D at that point. Oh, you're using the d20 system at the heart of D&D. But it ain't D&D anymore.

If you order a Big Mac at McDonald's and tell them to take off literally everything, item by item, 'til nothing is left but the bottom half of a bun, you're not eating a Big Mac. You're eating half a warmed up hamburger bun.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Apotheosis means "Become a God". It was her original goal.

Whatever Erandis's personal goals may be, it doesn't change the fact that she is not worshipped, or even acknowledged, by the majority of the Blood of Vol. Only the extremist Order of the Emerald Claw, as well as a small number of spies she has sent to infiltrate the Blood of Vol's clergy (and any assets those spies may have recruited during their infiltration) are aware of her existence.

As well, from what Keith has written, Erandis's current efforts are focused around trying to restore her Apex Dragonmark, rather than pursuing the Divinity Within that the Seekers have discovered (she can't go down that route, as she's Undead). The Blood of Vol to her are nothing more than potential pawns for her to manipulate; she would not directly gain anything were they to suddenly start worshipping her.

All of this is to say that yes, the Blood of Vol is an atheistic, or at least nontheistic religion. Erandis Vol/Lady Illmarrow is not their god.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Erandis Vol

Erandis Vol, usually known as Lady Illmarrow or the Lich Queen, is the last heir of the House of Vol, the elven bloodline that bore the Mark of Death. Half an elf and a half a dragon, Erandis was the hope of many to end the war between the dragons and elves. She is believed dead by most, but was...

eberron.fandom.com

Apotheosis means "Become a God". It was her original goal.

Anywho! On to the D&D thing: Yes. It absolutely DOES have everything to do with how generic D&D is.

No other fantasy has Gelatinous Cubes and Ochre Jellies. No other fantasy has Mimics and dragons divided by Chromatic, Metallic, and Gemstone. No other fantasy has Aboleths and Mind Flayers, Vancian Spellcasting, the Hand and Eye of Vecna, The Sphere of Annihilation.

So what? (Ignoring that other fantasy settings do have some of those things, and things like them)
The fact that there are specific things in a game doesn’t make the game non-generic. If it’s the word generic that’s bothering you we can use another, I don’t care, but the point is that D&D can be any fantasy genre. It shines brightest when you include adventure in the genre specification, but it works without it.

And as much as you strip out, BadWolf, MD, you've got to realize that those things are a part of something you're stripping away to get at the bits you want and need.

And once you've stripped away enough that it's easier to describe what you -haven't- removed than what you -have- removed, you've gotta know you're not playing D&D at that point. Oh, you're using the d20 system at the heart of D&D. But it ain't D&D anymore.

Okay, the name thing is disrespectful in a very strange way, but whatever. Not using aberrations or liches or finding any specific place for most of the races until they come up in adventure prep or character generation hardly qualifies as “not D&D”.
Most games I’ve seen never use whole swaths of the MM, none of my games feature a “blood war” even if set in a world that canonically has one because I find the fiend dichotomy rather stupid, and yet no one who has ever sat down at my table has posited that we weren’t playing D&D .

If it’s got some number of the D&D races and classes, and swords and spells, and the D&D action resolution system, and many of the creatures, etc, it’s a game of D&D.

If you order a Big Mac at McDonald's and tell them to take off literally everything, item by item, 'til nothing is left but the bottom half of a bun, you're not eating a Big Mac. You're eating half a warmed up hamburger bun.

Okay, but that isn’t a like comparison. No one I’ve ever played D&D with assumes that every game of D&D will specifically feature liches and beholders. It’s like claiming that I’m not eating a cheese burger because I didn’t put onions on it.

 

[Steampunkette]

I apologize for the disrespect. It was meant to be humorous, not insulting! That's on me.

I also see your infinite Ships of Theseus, and understand your position. I just disagree with it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I apologize for the disrespect. It was meant to be humorous, not insulting! That's on me.

I also see your infinite Ships of Theseus, and understand your position. I just disagree with it.

I’m curious what you consider necessary for a game to be D&D , then.

IME, nearly all campaigns leave some classic element or other out. D&D is vastly too broad to easily do otherwise.

I’ve never seen anyone claim that DMs who run a “curated” game, only using a few races and a limited scope of monsters, aren’t really running D&D, so why is a game where only humanoids, beasts, monstrosities, are commonly seen creatures, and dragons are semi-legendary, any less D&D than one that is just stock canon FR?
Do you see Dark Sun as not really D&D?

edit: I’m not meaning to be aggro about it, but I am a bit...perturbed by the suggestion that my game isn’t D&D because it doesn’t include every single element that’s ever been in a D&D core book.

 

[Krachek]

Chapter one of the DM guide, A world of your own.
I’m sure that there is no suggestion about using most of the monster manual to qualify into a DnD Wolrd.

 

[Greg K]

Okay, the name thing is disrespectful in a very strange way, but whatever. Not using aberrations or liches or finding any specific place for most of the races until they come up in adventure prep or character generation hardly qualifies as “not D&D”.
Most games I’ve seen never use whole swaths of the MM, none of my games feature a “blood war” even if set in a world that canonically has one because I find the fiend dichotomy rather stupid, and yet no one who has ever sat down at my table has posited that we weren’t playing D&D .

If it’s got some number of the D&D races and classes, and swords and spells, and the D&D action resolution system, and many of the creatures, etc, it’s a game of D&D.

Okay, but that isn’t a like comparison. No one I’ve ever played D&D with assumes that every game of D&D will specifically feature liches and beholders. It’s like claiming that I’m not eating a cheese burger because I didn’t put onions on it.

Agreed. When I run, there is no "Blood War" and it does not stop there. The vast majority of other planes do not exist and neither does the multiverse. So there is no Planescape, no Spelljamming, and no possible travelling between D&D worlds. Furthermore, outside of few modules, I have never used Beholders, Cloakers, Drow, Mimics, Piercers, Rust Monsters, Shriekers, Stirges. I have also never used the vast majority of 1e and 2e monsters and would never use them or the vast majority of monsters introduced in WOTC editions.

I also do not use the vast majority of official spells introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana and later editions. Even spells such as Flame Strike, Rope Trick, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Reincarnation, Tenser's Transformation are removed. The next time I run, I will be removing both flashy attack spells (e.g. Fireball, Lightning Bolt) and any area and ranged healing.

And, I have not even touched on races or classes/subclasses.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Agreed. When I run, there is no "Blood War" and it does not stop there. The vast majority of other planes do not exist and neither does the multiverse. So there is no Planescape, no Spelljamming, and no possible travelling between D&D worlds. Furthermore, outside of few modules, I have never used Beholders, Cloakers, Drow, Mimics, Piercers, Rust Monsters, Shriekers, Stirges. I have also never used the vast majority of 1e and 2e monsters and would never use them or the vast majority of monsters introduced in WOTC editions.

I also do not use the vast majority of of official spells introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana and later editions. Even spells such as Flame Strike, Rope Trick, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Reincarnation, Tenser's Transformation are removed. The next time I run, I will be removing both flashy attack spells (e.g. Fireball, Lightning Bolt) and any area and ranged healing.

And, I have not even touched on races or classes/subclasses.

You’re much further afield from “standard” D&D than I, but yeah we are all playing D&D.

 

[Salthorae]

I agree with the OP, that I like my classes to impact the fiction of my world, though this discussion seems to have gone far afield from the original proposition.

That said, it's not the only way to play the game. For me it is.

What is the impact on the world around for people who are born with the ability to use magic with no studies. That should be considered, or what is their history. Maybe they became an aristocracy at one point that was then overthrown and sorcerer's are now hunted rather than served, so people try to keep it a secret (and subtle spell has much more play!).

 

[Jaeger]

I wanted to share something that I've felt is a real problem with several character classes in D&D: They have Fantasy Associations, but no World-Anchoring.

Yeah, a Sorcerer is descended from a powerful ancestor. But other than "LoL! You had to -study- to learn magic? Pleb!" type jokes and statements, what does that -mean- for the world? What interactions does the existence of magic people from birth really mean? And I'm not talking about "My baby cast prestidigitation and scared the babysitter" I'm talking on a Cultural Level.

In a setting I've been designing, I had honestly considered just flatly cutting Sorcerers out of the game, entirely. They seemed almost pointless, like a vestigial nub of some greater narrative purpose that was never fulfilled. But then it hit me: Arcane Nobility.

This is because D&D was never designed for a specific setting.

D&D was always a hodge-podge of different Fantasy S&S, and Weird Fantasy sources. If you were to take a step back and create the next edition of D&D for a specific setting from the ground up, a lot things would need to be mechanically re-thought out.

All Settings.

Character classes should be a part of the world. Should shape it as a narrative conceit in the hands of the writer.

The word "Paladin" (or "Herald", now, I guess) should hold weight in the Mists of Ravenloft and also on Krynn. It should be a part of the narrative structures of Faerun and Athas. It shouldn't just "Exist to Exist". Is what I'm getting at. For the purpose of the setting, of -any- setting, a character class or race or other aspect should have a purpose.

If it doesn't have a purpose; it should be cut out.

Because Limits are important.

They're not just how we keep things in check, but they're the best way to give things a unique flavor. When you have a world that includes every D&D class, and assumes the existence of every D&D monster somewhere, it's going to end up looking a bit like the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, no matter what you do.

The best way to create a new world isn't to come up with a new spin on existing classes or monsters; but to exclude things.

IMHO, you should stick to your first instinct and cut Sorcerers out.

Rather than trying to come up with yet another reason to include more of "Core D&D" , your setting will be more unique without having to justify why sorcerers are in your world. Because the more you include the more your setting will trend towards a Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk pastiche.

I’ve never seen anyone claim that DMs who run a “curated” game, only using a few races and a limited scope of monsters, aren’t really running D&D, ...

Them's the naughty words right there...

I have seen it on this very board that when GM's start talking about restricting this or that element from the core PHB for their home brew campaign they start to get very politelyish pushback for not being "creative" enough to accommodate what a player may want to play regardless of the settings conceits.

When IMHO it is restriction that tends to breed creativity.