D&D General Character Classes should Mean Something in the Setting

They could have simply said put “Casting time: X min (ritual)” in the spell description, and explain that a spell with a ritual casting time doesn’t consume a spell slot. Quick and easy. Most spells that are ritual simply don’t need a fast cast version, and would honestly be more flavorful if they weren’t able to be fast cast.

So yes, totally agree.
That is -another- great point...

Maybe I should divest the Ritual Spells from the standard spell list altogether for the Ashen Lands and make things like Raise Dead and Wish into straight up Rituals that only the most powerful people (I.E. Level 17 for the Wish Spell) people can actually perform -if- they manage to secure the ancient texts such spells are generally relegated to...

It really plays into the whole "Necromancy is Occult Magic" thing I'm going for, too, if all the Undead Creation spells are ritualized...
 

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Lane 3) There are some very bland base classes which are clearly just mechanical frameworks and don't need to be tied to the setting because they're just that generic (Expert, Warrior, Mage, and Partial Class), but all the actual magic-magic of setting is extremely specific so tied to that setting, and there are also some very specific setting-tied classes, just for that setting, in addition to the base classes. This is the approach Worlds Without Number* takes.

* WWN is a fascinating combination of OSR and modern concepts, the only place I feel it seems a bit confused on is healing, as it takes a very 2E approach to natural healing but a 5E approach to magical healing, which basically means a group with a healer will be 5E-ish energizer bunnies, leaping off the floor back into the fray (or at least fully recovering between fights), whereas one without will be 2E-ish dullards, ruined for a week or more by a single PC being downed.
Yea, WWN is brilliant and has definitely shifted me pretty hard into “I prefer generic classes” territory. And magic is absolutely the area where setting specific mechanics can and should be realized. I’m actually using WWN for my Dark Sun remix campaign (which has enough changes that I won’t post it because it would make Dark Sun fans annoyed). :)
 

That is -another- great point...

Maybe I should divest the Ritual Spells from the standard spell list altogether for the Ashen Lands and make things like Raise Dead and Wish into straight up Rituals that only the most powerful people (I.E. Level 17 for the Wish Spell) people can actually perform -if- they manage to secure the ancient texts such spells are generally relegated to...

It really plays into the whole "Necromancy is Occult Magic" thing I'm going for, too, if all the Undead Creation spells are ritualized...
Makes sense to me. If they aren’t resource based, rituals just need to be gated by level and whatever other story requirements make sense to gain them. (Certain classes or magic type access, etc.)
 

There’s already a seed for group rituals thanks to the Hag Covens concept. A lot to work with. Boosts in spell level (beyond what each individu could do), boosts in number of HD affected (mass Sleep or Turn Undead or whatever). The heroes must stop a many hour long ritual of the Witch Queen who intends to destroy the current incarnation of a legendary queen and basically cast Mass Command over an entire Kingdom...
 

@RuinExplorer ..

What I think is that, ideally, D&D need to PICK A GODDAMN LANE < honks horn repeatedly >.... Dives over explorers hood. Hey My trainer is on your hood ornament. ! :)
I wish but nearly every time some brings up limiting choice in a setting or mainly at table (AKA picking a lane); they get told they are having bad wrong fun. Or worse. Then you either have the general population/buyers wanting everything published to be "OFFICIALLY" in the realms.
Look at Eberron Rising War Nov 19,2019 which had Artificers. Which I have never heard of. Less than a year later Tasha's Nov 17,2020 releases Artificers into the wilds of the Realms.
It seems a lot of people have forgotten A DM can limit choice. But the general populace or the market wants no limits. Or have I totally missed your point?
Man if the Forgetton Realms kitchen sink gets any bigger I will be able to roll my Ford Ranger through for a quick wash.
 

Makes sense to me. If they aren’t resource based, rituals just need to be gated by level and whatever other story requirements make sense to gain them. (Certain classes or magic type access, etc.)
I don't wanna get -too- deep into it 'cause it's not what the thread is about... but... my right this moment thoughts?

Arcane Magic is your standard "Manipulate Reality" magic. Only people who study it, carefully, can do it well. Those who are born with it do it intuitively. Requires Arcana Skill to use.

Divine Magic is straight up "From the Gods". There are only 12, they're all part of 1 pantheon, and 9 of them don't even have real Identities. Requires Skill -check-, since you're performing the ritual for the Gods to appease or entice them.

Primal Magic is Fae Magic, Elemental Power, the Storm, and Cycles. Requires big groups and/or sacrifices of animals, plants, etc.

Occult Magic is Old Magic, ancient power with a corruptive influence. Anyone can use Occult Rituals just have to find them, read them, and do 'em. Generally requires small sacrifices or particularly -esoteric- ones... like trading a memory away for a spell to function. Big ones take human sacrifice!
 

@RuinExplorer ..

What I think is that, ideally, D&D need to PICK A GODDAMN LANE < honks horn repeatedly >.... Dives over explorers hood. Hey My trainer is on your hood ornament. ! :)
I wish but nearly every time some brings up limiting choice in a setting or mainly at table (AKA picking a lane); they get told they are having bad wrong fun. Or worse. Then you either have the general population/buyers wanting everything published to be "OFFICIALLY" in the realms.
Look at Eberron Rising War Nov 19,2019 which had Artificers. Which I have never heard of. Less than a year later Tasha's Nov 17,2020 releases Artificers into the wilds of the Realms.
It seems a lot of people have forgotten A DM can limit choice. But the general populace or the market wants no limits. Or have I totally missed your point?
Man if the Forgetton Realms kitchen sink gets any bigger I will be able to roll my Ford Ranger through for a quick wash.
Largely true? Though... y'know... FR had Artificers in the 80s...

Lantan was Faerun's "Technologically Advanced" society. It was created in 1987 because people so deeply loved Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance.

Oh, sure, they didn't use the -name- Artificer. But the concept existed since then.
 

I don't wanna get -too- deep into it 'cause it's not what the thread is about... but... my right this moment thoughts?

Arcane Magic is your standard "Manipulate Reality" magic. Only people who study it, carefully, can do it well. Those who are born with it do it intuitively. Requires Arcana Skill to use.

Divine Magic is straight up "From the Gods". There are only 12, they're all part of 1 pantheon, and 9 of them don't even have real Identities. Requires Skill -check-, since you're performing the ritual for the Gods to appease or entice them.

Primal Magic is Fae Magic, Elemental Power, the Storm, and Cycles. Requires big groups and/or sacrifices of animals, plants, etc.

Occult Magic is Old Magic, ancient power with a corruptive influence. Anyone can use Occult Rituals just have to find them, read them, and do 'em. Generally requires small sacrifices or particularly -esoteric- ones... like trading a memory away for a spell to function. Big ones take human sacrifice!
Yep, love that.
 

I know this is a bit off topic... but...

... is there an appropriate subforum to just blast a whole bunch of homebrew stuff and campaign setting things and ask people what they think of the concepts and if they have anything they'd like to suggest for interesting additions and the like? 'Cause I've got a bunch of stuff but also it's nowhere near done...
 

I sort of agree.

What I think is that, ideally, D&D need to PICK A GODDAMN LANE < honks horn repeatedly >

D&D currently, and this is particularly the case in 5E, does a weird thing where randomly some classes, and some archetypes are in-setting things, which have a definite, comprehensible and reliably meaning, and others are merely mechanical frameworks, which might be used for anything which fits within that broad mechanical conceit - they're almost like 4E's roles, more than actual classes.

D&D is thus basically swerving all over the road on this point, or at least repeatedly drifting over the center-line. They could, however, pick a lane.

Lane 1) Classes become largely mechanical frameworks, to be re-flavoured at will, with little/no hard link to the setting. Ideally classes would be re-designed a bit at this point as well. Whilst some people will say "why not go points-based?" I'd say, because everything points-based is a total balance/min-maxing disaster of the worst kind. Keeping classes, at least in the background, means you'd be able to have something which was both more accessible, and more flexible than what we have now. You'd obviously have examples which showed really simple/obvious ways to use the frameworks, but they'd be options, not fixed.

Lane 2) The Earthdawn lane, you make classes very much not mere frameworks, but actual things. This too would probably involve re-jigging the classes a bit, and would probably involve some settings simply not having certain classes and archetypes by default (always available if the group wants of course). It would also mean less compatibility of older settings, but I'd be fine with that. I'd kind of want to do it with every class, too, but there is perhaps another way:

Lane 3) There are some very bland base classes which are clearly just mechanical frameworks and don't need to be tied to the setting because they're just that generic (Expert, Warrior, Mage, and Partial Class), but all the actual magic-magic of setting is extremely specific so tied to that setting, and there are also some very specific setting-tied classes, just for that setting, in addition to the base classes. This is the approach Worlds Without Number* takes.

* WWN is a fascinating combination of OSR and modern concepts, the only place I feel it seems a bit confused on is healing, as it takes a very 2E approach to natural healing but a 5E approach to magical healing, which basically means a group with a healer will be 5E-ish energizer bunnies, leaping off the floor back into the fray (or at least fully recovering between fights), whereas one without will be 2E-ish dullards, ruined for a week or more by a single PC being downed.

So

Lane 1
Fighter, Halfcaster, Jack, Priest, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Warlock, Warrior, Wizard

Lane 2
Alchemist, Assassin, Avenger, Bard, Battlesmith, Berserker, Bladesinger, Cleric, Cultist, Defender, Doomsayer, Druid, Elementalist, Griot, Gunsmith, Illusionist, Ivoker, Knight, Miner, Monk, Paladin, Pirate, Psion, Ranger, Runepriest, Scoundrel, Seeker, Slayer, Shaman, Sorcerer, Swordmage, Swordsage, Thane, Thief, Tinker, Warmage, Warlord, Weaponmaster, Witch

Lane1
Adventurer, Expert, Gish, Mage, Sneak, Warrior with spiked chains and Umomono's Icyball.
 

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