D&D (2024) Class spell lists and pact magic are back!

[Horwath]

I'm just waiting for Ranger report from last UA...

 

[Remathilis]

People abandoning it cause it’s not a new edition? That is some pretty tasty irony.

I've moved from enthusiastic to apathetic. Why bother providing feedback when neither the designers nor the community has an appetite for change. I'll pick up the book in 24 and use what I want from it, but I don't see any point in getting excited about anything prior to that.

 

[Horwath]

I've moved from enthusiastic to apathetic. Why bother providing feedback when neither the designers nor the community has an appetite for actual change. I'll pick up the book in 24 and use what I want from it, but I don't see any point in getting excited about anything prior to that.

This.

I'm getting bored with many of X times/long or short rest being based on ability modifier instead of prof mod.
Like this game needs any more incentive to max out your primary or secondary stat before anything else.

prime stat should be for attack/damage/DC bonuses. and skills OFC

Any limited usage should be only on prof bonus per long/short rest.
It's easier to balance when you do not have to worry about ability score discrepancy between various characters.


another beef is that EVERYTHING that is not completely mundane has to be a spell. Yawn...
Even writing a new spell in spellbook is a spell... writing now is too complicated to be anything but magic.

 

[Remathilis]

This.

I'm getting bored with many of X times/long or short rest being based on ability modifier instead of prof mod.
Like this game needs any more incentive to max out your primary or secondary stat before anything else.

prime stat should be for attack/damage/DC bonuses. and skills OFC

Any limited usage should be only on prof bonus per long/short rest.
It's easier to balance when you do not have to worry about ability score discrepancy between various characters.


another beef is that EVERYTHING that is not completely mundane has to be a spell. Yawn...
Even writing a new spell in spellbook is a spell... writing now is too complicated to be anything but magic.

Agreed. The game already pushes you to get a 20 ASAP and abilities that run on ability mod per day just increases the pressure. At least prep casting isn't spell mod + level (for now).

And I felt it was a touch goofy to have spell creation and warlock pacts be spells. But I feel the opposite of paladin smite; it's actually an ability that interacts with spell slots and isn't at will, it's basically a spell that didn't act like a spell so why not make it a spell?

(The answer, of course, is that since it wasn't a spell it got to break the rules of spellcasting which made it super powerful and players will fight tooth and nail at any potential nerf).

 

[Horwath]

Agreed. The game already pushes you to get a 20 ASAP and abilities that run on ability mod per day just increases the pressure. At least prep casting isn't spell mod + level (for now).

And I felt it was a touch goofy to have spell creation and warlock pacts be spells. But I feel the opposite of paladin smite; it's actually an ability that interacts with spell slots and isn't at will, it's basically a spell that didn't act like a spell so why not make it a spell?

(The answer, of course, is that since it wasn't a spell it got to break the rules of spellcasting which made it super powerful and players will fight tooth and nail at any potential nerf).

paladin smite really does not need to be a spell, it is't basic damage only form that is.
Once per turn limit is more that enough to have it constrained.

Also the new sorcerer only spells are horrible and do not need to be spells at all.
I.E.
Draconics dragon breath can be an at-will ability.
3d6 damage in 15ft cone.
you can augment that damage by spending a spell slot during that action. For every spell level of slot, increase damage by 2d6 and cone range by 5ft.

 

[ChameleonX]

I'm a fan of combined spell lists, but I understand why they're shying away from it now.

It's really something that every class needs to be built around from the start to really be done right, so having it tacked on during a mid-edition update probably would cause more problems than it would solve.

If/when we get a true sixth edition, then they'll probably reinvestigate the option of common spell lists.

 

[billd91]

I've moved from enthusiastic to apathetic. Why bother providing feedback when neither the designers nor the community has an appetite for change. I'll pick up the book in 24 and use what I want from it, but I don't see any point in getting excited about anything prior to that.

And how did you know the community had no appetite for the changes you prefer? Feedback. How would they know your preferred changes should you happen to be in the majority? Feedback. Withdrawing from the process becomes self-fulfilling prophecy: They aren't going to listen to you because you're not giving them anything to listen to.

 

[mellored]

Why bother to buy a book if I can borrow it from someone for an hour and just "pencil in" the "new edition"?

as the changes go now, or better yet, the retraction of almost all, they might as well give PDF errata for 2€ and be done with it.

But there will be new art.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

another beef is that EVERYTHING that is not completely mundane has to be a spell. Yawn...

I think the spell system is a brilliant, resilient, diverse design that deserves to be used for many (not all) magical class abilities. It enables so many archetypes because, in part:

1. You get to choose your toolbox of "spell" abilities (rather than be forced to have class abilities that are stuck to the class progression).
2. It uses universal, understandable ability templates that interact well with the world.
3. The spells can be as detailed as they need to be, because spells live in the Spell chapter. If every new magical class ability that could be implemented as a spell was not designed as a spell, that would need to live in the Class description, making those chapters much longer.
4. It offers built-in scalability for many abilities, with clean level progression increasing power and usage.
5. It uses an understandable slot-based recharge system that allows the user to OPT into using the same ability multiple times with multiple spell slots if they so choose, rather than add extra powers on top of spell slots.
6. Spells are rules objects that can be accessible to every archetype that deserves access.

If the designers want new magical abilities to work with potentially variable action-type usage, durations, targets/areas of effect, saving throws, scalable effectiveness, and be able to be used multiple times without adding on top of existing spell slots, they are describing a spell. The spell template works. Now not every ability needs a spell, as some abilities are short, sweet, and self-only buffs, or aren't served well by a spell template.

Without such a class-agnostic system, all the underlying rules for how all these "spell-like" abilities work would have to be rehashed in every class, magic item, and other source that they are introduced in.

 

[Pedantic]

I think the spell system is a brilliant, resilient, diverse design that deserves to be used for many (not all) magical class abilities. It enables so many archetypes because, in part:

1. You get to choose your toolbox of "spell" abilities (rather than be forced to have class abilities that are stuck to the class progression).
2. It uses universal, understandable ability templates that interact well with the world.
3. The spells can be as detailed as they need to be, because spells live in the Spell chapter. If every new magical class ability that could be implemented as a spell was not designed as a spell, that would need to live in the Class description, making those chapters much longer.
4. It offers built-in scalability for many abilities, with clean level progression increasing power and usage.
5. It uses an understandable slot-based recharge system that allows the user to OPT into using the same ability multiple times with multiple spell slots if they so choose, rather than add extra powers on top of spell slots.
6. Spells are rules objects that can be accessible to every archetype that deserves access.

If the designers want new magical abilities to work with potentially variable action-type usage, durations, targets/areas of effect, saving throws, scalable effectiveness, and be able to be used multiple times without adding on top of existing spell slots, they are describing a spell. The spell template works. Now not every ability needs a spell, as some abilities are short, sweet, and self-only buffs, or aren't served well by a spell template.

Without such a class-agnostic system, all the underlying rules for how all these "spell-like" abilities work would have to be rehashed in every class, magic item, and other source that they are introduced in.

The biggest issue is the components. VSM casting as it stands should be a line under the Wizard's spellcasting feature, Bard spells should require instruments, Ranger spells should never require verbal components and so on. Reusing the specific technique descriptions is fine.