Clerics are a popular class for elves...Really?

Bongo Bigguns said:
I'm confused. Wasn't the entire point of the elf-eladrin division that one race was more natural (woods-loving, whatever) and the other was more magical? That's a ranger and a wizard build, right? So why announce that their going to make such good clerics now? That kind of muddies the waters, niche-wise.

They never said that elves were nonmagical and eladrin were magical.

Also wizards and clerics are different animals in 4e. I suppose currently, where the only difference between the two is that clerics can wear armor and cast (generally) weaker spells, this distinction would be academic. It is sounding like, in 4e, they will so so conceptually different that there will be no perceived overlap. Divine leader vs. arcane controller and all that.

Of course, that said, even in 3e, a build (that is the stats, races, and skill / feat choices) for a cleric are VERY different from the build for a wizard.

DC
 

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Stone Dog said:
Yes. Yes he is.

As GreatLemur pointed out, he's an eladrin.

Apparently, elves, however, have a strong tradition of being clerics, though. I like it, anyway. Elves make clerics and eladrin make wizards. Seems fitting to me.
 

ThirdWizard said:
Apparently, elves, however, have a strong tradition of being clerics, though. I like it, anyway. Elves make clerics and eladrin make wizards. Seems fitting to me.

I'd hardly characterize any character race as having a tradition of being clerics since none of them, in previous editions, ever got wisdom bonuses. There was no racial min-maxing involved in any of that. You went with a human, dwarf, elf, whatever as a cleric depending on flavor choices of the player.
I've played an elven cleric before, back in 1st edition. Had fun with it too.
 

Sitara said:
Ah. I see. A very good point, and it may be enough to answer the question right then and there. I'm not jesting here btw; WoW is a large inspiration on dndn 4E, and it is apparently the faveorite pastime of the Wizo's.
The only designers I know who play WoW are Wyatt and Noonan. Mearls has shown great distaste towards MMOs.
 

Clavis said:
I'm much more in favor of the idea that elves, as fay-like creatures, don't have souls. Consequentially, I don't think they should recognize any Gods at all, but rather be pantheists of a kind. Certainly I never liked the idea of elves worshiping anything. Elves should regard themselves are living gods, to be adored by other races.

Which is the fluff that has always accompanied elves IMC. It's also why I really like the 4E elf/eladrin split. The standard "elves" IMC are eladrins (based on available info).

Of course, I can't pay people in my group to play a cleric, elf or otherwise, so it's really a moot point for me.
 

Zweischneid said:
Why would it? I've played many a middle-earth rpg and they're great. Despite being so superior, elves don't get any extra limelight in the LoTR-Tale either.

Similarly, I've played many games of D&D in the old days where lvl 2 rogues side with lvl 20 wizards, etc.. .

People need to get off that balance mirage... live's not in balance, and neither is a good fantasy tale.
It's similar to the reason that wizards don't work well as PCs. In most stories, wizards can cast a spell to solve almost every problem. If they need to get over a pit they can fly or shapechange into a bird. If enemies attack them they have fireballs and magic shields. They can unlock doors with a wave of their hands, etc.

Tolkien elves have a similar problem in that they can do almost anything. They are stronger, faster, more agile, smarter, wiser, more magical, more beautiful, more skilled, longer lived, and just purely better in all ways. It is implied that any time there is a battle that if the army had consisted of elves they could half won in half the time with half the losses with half the number of troops.

Both of these situations are solved very easily in stories where the exact numbers of things are not known. If you don't know exactly how many spells a wizard has or what the limit of his powers are it is easy to write into the story that he runs out of spells at the exact moment he is needed most and the hero of the story then has to make an amazing leap over an impossible to jump pit to prove how good he is. It's a good story and it's very dramatic.

You can do the same thing with Super-Elves. They are as good as you want them to be. So, when you need them to lose they lose. When you need to show how awesome they are they win dramatically.

However, in a role playing game where you have actual numbers for things you can't use these methods to fix balance problems without being extremely arbitrary and making the numbers mean nothing. If you write down on your character sheet that you can cast fly 3 times today and you reach that pit, you won't have the dramatic scene with the hero attempting to leap over it. The wizard will fly him over easily and it will be simple.

You can't just have the Super-Elf lose this battle because the hero is supposed to be the one to save the day when the elf is more accurate than everyone else and is harder to hit than everyone else. The numbers decide the outcome, not the story.

In a story you can choose to focus on what you want. In a role playing game the focus goes wherever the rules and the players take it. And powerful characters always take the spotlight over everyone else. If there is a level 2 rogue and level 20 wizard in the same group, the wizard will be able to make the rogue look like a bumbling idiot over and over again:

Rogue: I sneak ahead and try to scout out the area.
Wizard: What the heck are you doing? You realize this is a dragon's lair right? Dragons have such great hearing and eyesight that they'll be able to spot you and hear you every single time they try even when you are trying your best. And when it spots you, it'll be able to tear you limb from limb within seconds of spotting you. On the other hand, I can make myself completely invisible so it has 0 chance of spotting me, and completely silent so it has 0 chance of hearing me. If there are any locks I can cast a spell that has 100% chance of unlocking them whereas you are likely unable to open them even if you roll a natural 20 since expensive treasure is normally protected with DC 30 locks. Luckily, I also have the ability to kill the dragon dead with one spell. It'll take you minutes of continuously attacking it before you'd kill it. It might actually just be a good idea for you to stay at home while I defeat the dragon. If you eat your dinner by the time I get home I may share some of its treasure with you. That's a good little rogue.
 

Sitara said:
I'm not jesting here btw; WoW is a large inspiration on dndn 4E, and it is apparently the faveorite pastime of the Wizo's.
Just to make sure we're clear... The WizO's are just volunteer folk from the general populace that have been selected by WotC to help run their boards. They're not actually on the payroll, have probably never been to the office, and often don't actually know that much about the game. I know a few of the WotC blogs have mentioned WoW, but I'm not so sure about WizO's. I just want to make sure that this is clear because I remember when the magazines got pulled and people started *****ing out the WizOs about it, despite their not having any actual ties to the company, much less a role in the decision making process.
 

I don't see anything in the write up that indicates that Elves are not religious.

They revere nature, so it makes sense that they might revere a God of Nature.

They are creatures of strong passions, so it makes sense that some might devote themselves to a God in a way that far exceeds that of most people.
 

If someone has already brought this up yet, I apologize, but Elves made some very good clerics in the entire run of 3E, particularly, apparently, Cleric archers who would buff up to unbelievable levels, buff their weapons and arrows, and lay waste to anything that moved, especially with the War Domain. It surprised me, but I recall it being mentioned frequently on many character optimization boards.
 

Actually, having read the list of powers that clerics get in the Preview, it's damn easy to make a Shaman by just changing the fluff.

I can easily see an fey, elven Cleric doing his magic not by invoking gods, but by asking the fey spirits that rule over the elements and nature for some assistance.

Buff:
Cleric: "And my god endows you with the power to deflect the slings and arrows of the wicked."
Shaman: "Father Mountain embraces you."

Healing
Cleric: "And you a HEAL-Ahed! PRAISE PELOR."
Shaman: "Mother Tree, little help here?"

Direct Flashy Damage Owow
Cleric: "I bring the heavens down upon thee!"
Shaman: "Spirits of the sky say hi." BOOM.
 

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