D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Garthanos]

And to use that one example while ignoring everything else related to strength seems pretty disingenuous to me.

you got 10 percentiles more than than the 16 strength character... you started as
you can carry 180 lbs before being encumbered instead of 100 for joe blow.

Quick point of minor disagreement (or perhaps just clarification).

It’s not that these effects yield non-heroic play. It’s that (a) the ceiling of efficacy is attained early on in play (fair enough), (b) therefore they don’t scale as (c) the obstacles faced should/will be scaling (in breadth and raw difficulty) and (d) Spellcasters’ capabilities (both breadth and raw power) will be scaling hugely while (e) not interacting with action resolution mechanics to determine their success/effect.

Sure if the mages werent progressing into the realm of ridiculous you do not need things to scale so much for the non caster

 

[Oofta]

Jumping is horribly designed anyway, to be used as an example of strength. Not only for reasons you gave, but look how high jump is factored. In D&D land, the strongest people are the best high jumpers. Obviously that's not remotely accurate in real life. And to use that one example while ignoring everything else related to strength seems pretty disingenuous to me.

There are a lot of compromises in D&D for simplicity, and the whole strength/dexterity thing ... I dunno. I don't know if there is a great way of modeling it that would be simple enough for a TTRPG. Different yes. Better? Not sure.

But nitpicking how far a person should be able to jump from standing still has little or nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Garthanos]

I can think of several ways that holding your breath for 6 minutes can be extremely impacful out of combat.

Where as a caster will give the entire party water breathing (possibly even the low low price of a minor ritual)
which atleast in 4e has a price.

 

[Undrave]

It's not because jump distances in D&D are based on mathematical precision and real life measurement. They're based on simplicity and happen to be in the ballpark.

Then a high level Fighter should be STRONGER AND BETTER than a real life professional football player.

You are basically admitting they are not. The game has a ballpark figure for standing long jump that err on the side of caution instead of being super heroic by outperforming real life athletes.

 

[Undrave]

Also, having high HP is NOT "compelling gameplay" it's just some number you get given. There's no player agency in surviving a hit because you have lots of HP.

 

[Garthanos]

There are a lot of compromises in D&D for simplicity, and the whole strength/dexterity thing ... I dunno. I don't know if there is a great way of modeling it that would be simple enough for a TTRPG. Different yes. Better? Not sure.

Agreed simplification is definitely necessary... and if one is targeting every day joes this is actually not so bad.

 

[Oofta]

Then a high level Fighter should be STRONGER AND BETTER than a real life professional football player.

You are basically admitting they are not. The game has a ballpark figure for standing long jump that err on the side of caution instead of being super heroic by outperforming real life athletes.

No. I'm saying that the math for how far you can jump is simple and close enough. I'll take simplicity over accuracy, thanks.

And what is it with all the yelling?

 

[Undrave]

No. I'm saying that the math for how far you can jump is simple and close enough. I'll take simplicity over accuracy, thanks.

And what is it with all the yelling?

Sorry, I capitalise for emphasis. I should use the bold instead.

I don't mind the math being simple, but it doesn't have to be complicated to match or even exceed real life limits. An epic level fighter should be able to wreck olympic records.

 

[Oofta]

Sorry, I capitalise for emphasis. I should use the bold instead.

I don't mind the math being simple, but it doesn't have to be complicated to match or even exceed real life limits. An epic level fighter should be able to wreck olympic records.

Which a DM can allow with an athletics check. But whether they "should" be able to is a matter of opinion, it's never been an issue in my game.

To do better there'd have to be some sort of chart instead of the (overly) simplistic formula they use.

 

[Undrave]

Which a DM can allow with an athletics check. But whether they "should" be able to is a matter of opinion, it's never been an issue in my game.

To do better there'd have to be some sort of chart instead of the (overly) simplistic formula they use.

The basic formula is

"When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance."

That's basically not even math at this point. Just give the Fighter a class feature that adds 5/10/15 feet to your long jump depending on level. It's not rocket science.