D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

[FrogReaver]

I have, sort of.

Remember, a +1 weapon has the same rarity as Gauntlets of Ogre Power (more important if your game allows item crafting or item purchasing I suppose).

A +2 weapon has the same rarity as a belt of hill giant strength (Str 21)

A +3 weapon has the same rarity as a belt of fire giant strength (Str 25) or Stone/Frost giant strength (Str 23)

So your high end Fighter with 2 +3 weapons has nearly as much gear as a fighter with a +3 greatsword and a belt of fire giant strength

That's fine but not really the point I'm getting at. You are looking at balancing around expected magic items. I'm saying what if the balance point has already been around having a +1/+2/+3 weapon in tiers 2/3/4 and that's what makes us look at TWF as sucking. The numbers actually map out very well if you factor in basic magic weapon bonuses in those tiers.

So, lets say our fighters are above 11th level (we're giving them two very rare items after all).

Two weapon fighter has 4 attacks at +12 to hit and 1d6+8 damage (46 potential). Greatsword fighter has 3 attacks at +13 to hit and 2d6*+9 (52) and an increased chance to hit, or 3 attacks at +14 to hit and 2d6*+10 (55).

No, according to my theory they would both have +2 magic weapons. The TWF would do 1d6+7 with 4 attacks and the GWF would do 2d6+7 with 3 attacks. They would have the same chance to hit. Damage would be identical at 42 (the GWF would have a +1 ac bonus in comparison).

TWFing starts out better than GWFing for a Fighter until 5th level, falls behind but is okay from 5th to 10th, and then dies at 11th.

Not if you factor in +1/+2/+3 magic weapons

Paladins are okay, especially if they can get the style, because of the way Improved Divine Smite works.

Paladins are fine with it even without the style - it's simply a way to increase NOVA potential at the expense of slightly lower daily damage (until you hit level 11 and gain divine smite)

Balancing TWFing would require more changes (like going in and changing how Hunter's Mark/Hex work) than many are prepared for.

Maybe 6E will get it right. Or a few of us will get off our butts and put together D&D Tactics.

Seriously take a look at all the classes with a +1/+2/+3 and get back to me. Throw out all magic item assumptions. Just look and see if the fighting styles are balanced on a per class basis at that point. You'll be surprised how close it is.

 

[Oofta]

I'm never arguing against cool. But when duelist with a longsword and shield out damages a TWFer with two shorts words, I find that the rules aren't supporting the character. You might have thought the fighter was fine, but giving something extra would have been more fine.

At higher levels, why are they using short swords? Unless of course you don't use feats in your game. It also depends on a lot of things. Levels, items, multiple opponents, play style all factor into it. Comparing characters on a spreadsheet, especially when most games (according to various sources) never get above level 10 is kind of pointless.

Of course if maximizing your calculated DPR is what makes the game fun for you, more power to you.

 

[Quartz]

Is there any consensus about how to fix two-weapon fighting?

TWF is fine and balanced in a game without both feats and multiclassing. It only needs fixing in a game with feats or multiclassing or both.

I too have no issue with TWF using the bonus action.

 

[FrogReaver]

TWF is fine and balanced in a game without both feats and multiclassing. It only needs fixing in a game with feats or multiclassing or both.

I too have no issue with TWF using the bonus action.

Mostly yes. It's fine in a game without feats and multiclassing for every class except a high level fighter. It greatly falls behind for him (unless you factor in +1/+2/+3 magic weapons in tiers 2/3/4). At that point it comes out pretty even.

 

[Oofta]

Concerning the fighter with a belt of giant strength two handed vs not, why assume the dual wielder has two +3 weapons? While I haven't done the math a PC with a pair of +1 swords and the equivalent belt of giant strength is probably going be in the same ballpark if not better.

 

[FrogReaver]

Concerning the fighter with a belt of giant strength two handed vs not, why assume the dual wielder has two +3 weapons? While I haven't done the math a PC with a pair of +1 swords and the equivalent belt of giant strength is probably going be in the same ballpark if not better.

Because everyone having +3 weapons tier 4 makes TWF roughly balanced with Great weapons (without feats).

 

[FrogReaver]

At higher levels, why are they using short swords? Unless of course you don't use feats in your game. It also depends on a lot of things. Levels, items, multiple opponents, play style all factor into it. Comparing characters on a spreadsheet, especially when most games (according to various sources) never get above level 10 is kind of pointless.

Of course if maximizing your calculated DPR is what makes the game fun for you, more power to you.

Generally the dual wielder feat is bad. Generally if your TWF it's better to go dex. Generally rapiers are not cool and no one likes dual wielding rapiers.

 

[Quartz]

Mostly yes. It's fine in a game without feats and multiclassing for every class except a high level fighter. It greatly falls behind for him (unless you factor in +1/+2/+3 magic weapons in tiers 2/3/4). At that point it comes out pretty even.

I disagree: Assuming a 16 stat and no feats, TWF is hugely ahead in DPR in tier 1, just ahead of Duellst in tier 2, and just behind in tier 3. It's only truly behind at level 20 when the fighter gets a fourth main attack. For 19 levels, TWF is just fine.

 

[FrogReaver]

I disagree: Assuming a 16 stat and no feats, TWF is hugely ahead in DPR in tier 1, just ahead of Duellst in tier 2, and just behind in tier 3. It's only truly behind at level 20 when the fighter gets a fourth main attack. For 19 levels, TWF is just fine.

No - you are forgetting about action surge, 2nd wind, precision attack, OA's etc. -- All of which favor the GWF

 

[Quartz]

No - you are forgetting about action surge, 2nd wind, precision attack, OA's etc.

No, I'm not. They all apply equally to all fighting styles. In particular Action Surge is once per short rest so really doesn't count.