D&D 5E Context Switching Paralysis, or Why we Will Always Have the Thief Debate

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Yeah, I believe this is why Battlemasters were given the bonus damage on top of the maneuver. So they could do the special do-dad and cause damage, while it gave DMs an easy way to allow everyone else to do these actions if the DM wanted to allow it while not stepping on the BM's toes-- use the combat maneuver rules for everyone else to get the special do-dad, while not getting to cause damage on top of it with the attempt.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Where I think awesomeness aversion comes in (and what the phrase evokes for me) is when a DM is afraid of making a ruling because it is awesome. It's the counterpoint to the so-called "Rule of Cool." It's when a player proposes something that is outside of the defined skills or abilities and the DM just reflexively wants to say no, because the DM is afraid of allowing things that are "awesome" that are outside of granted/enumerated abilities. Because if they do, who knows where it will stop? It's a pernicious bugbear that many DMs have in their mind- "If I allow Player X to do this awesome thing, how can I stop Player Y from demanding to do the an even awesomer thing?" Unfortunately, when a DM is in this mindset, it squelches the creativity of the players.
I agree with what you wrote here, in that the more freedom you allow stunting the more pressure you put on the DM to maintain game balance. (I'm sure plenty of DMs have run into the "if I allow you to blind that guy with some dirt you picked up, than our fights become nothing but flinging dirt" issue.)

I'd also say that the more the DM allows unenumerated powers, the more that renders the "character-building" portion of the game (that many players are heavily invested in) inconsequential. That's not such a big deal in a generally freeform game like OD&D, but it's a pretty big deal if you're playing any 21st century version of D&D.
 

MGibster

Legend
I'm thinking of that scene from one of the Lord of the Rings movies where Legolas surfs down a flight of stairs on a shield while shooting his bow at a bunch of orcs. I thought it was a cheesy and unwelcome aspect of a scene that was otherwise good but some people loved it. Would that be an example of awesome aversion?
 

Celebrim

Legend
First of all, to everyone in the thread in general, this is a really good thread with so much great stuff going on I can't barge into every discussion (yet). Thanks @Snarf Zagyg

I think D&D is a game that generally involves DM adjudication throughout the process and/or in most instances, but some more than others. My sense is that what we're talking about is the degree to which individual players are comfortable with that.

I do wonder if some of this has to do with when one cut one's teeth on D&D. As an "80s boomer," I learned D&D in a context in which the rules were very much a toolset and different groups incorporated different elements and ignored a lot else (e.g. encumbrance, treasure types, etc). By the time 2E rolled out, it was a bit more clear and consistent, but still involved a lot of rulings. 3E and 4E weighed more towards codified rules, and this probably reflected a game developed during the video game era in which there are no rulings. So I'm wondering if those who prefer a more heavily rules-over-rulings style are mostly folks who started with 3E/4E and/or grew up playing video games, whereas maybe those more comfortable with rulings-over-rules started before or after 3E/3E, and/or weren't as imprinted with the video game paradigm.

Not saying this is the only possible factor, but maybe one of the key ones.

I come at this with a little different perspective because say 80% of my gaming career I've been asked to be the GM for the table so when you talk about whether I'm comfortable with GM's adjudicating the process of play I come from it from the perspective of being the one doing it.

And I'm also a product of the 80's, a kid GM on a bike, who started playing back in that era when the rules were vague, incomplete, and often narrow and frequently not optimal. And so I do remember what it was like to have to run the game when the toolset for running the game was maddeningly hard to apply and use in a fair and consistent manner and having all the time to search for house rules to make the game better, without necessarily as a teenage DM having a good idea what those would look like. Like other DMs I knew, I added things to the rules because it seemed cool or vaguely addressed some mental problem I had with the rules (even if often as not it addressed it badly and made new problems).

So when I left D&D it was in part with how hard it was to run the game that I wanted to run, not because I had tired of high fantasy or tired of the setting, but because I had tired of fighting the rules set tooth and nail. And when I came back to 3e, it was because I saw in it an elegant version of the rules set I had been struggling to create that was clear and consistent and had a pattern I could apply to cover almost everything that would come up without having to a do a lot of thought in the middle of the game to figure out how to rule on a situation. It's not that everything was perfect, but the framework was so good that I was sure I was going to be able to fix any problems that came up. And while there was more wrong than I realized at the time, the sense that the framework was going to support me proved true.

As a GM, I come at the "Rulings vs. Rules" question much like I come at a published adventure that has an enormous amount of it left out that I then have to create before I can run the adventure successfully. A system that heavily depends on "Rulings vs. Rules" is objectively a bad system in the same way that a "carefully read this, figure out what I've left out that is going to be important in play, then do all the heavy lifting yourself to fix it" adventure module is a bad adventure. During my 3e tenure I did a one shot in 1e out of nostalgia, and I hated it. I had ran 1e AD&D for like 15 years, and going back to it after getting used to the system supporting me rather than fighting me felt like torture. I was running a scene with a flash flood of water that would have been easy and fair when ran in 3e, where the published guidelines for the scene in 1e were extremely tedious, unfair, and failed to cover even the most basic of play propositions (such as "I try to lend my buddy who might drown a helping hand"). I was once again forced to throw out the system and ad hoc something in the middle of play without even a formal system in place that made ad hocing something easy the way skills and saves in 3e do.

Being heavily codified does not in fact make the rules more complicated. In practice, it makes them simpler. And at worst, the process of looking up a good rule to cover a situation is still quicker than the process of making up a good rule, especially when the rules already are pretty good when covering most situations. It's so much easier to not to have to create rulings, but even more so it's so much easier to create rulings if you already have good rules.

As a GM that grew up with 1e, I have no problems with using a ruling or changing a rule if I feel I need to do so. No one has to tell me or enable me or empower me to do that. But doing so is not an advantage to the system.

And I'm like baffled at the idea that there exists any sort of player that would rather most of the time be issued arbitrary rulings with no real expectation when they make a proposition what sort of stakes and risks might be involved or whether or not their character is remotely good at the test that is likely to be called on or even whether their character's abilities will be considered at all in the resolution. I always try to be the GM I would want to have as a player, and I have to think that no matter what era you are from, that's not great.

That's not to say that there aren't differences between players and GMs of different eras, but let's not dismiss player discomfort of rulings over rules as "them youngsters in the yard".
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm thinking of that scene from one of the Lord of the Rings movies where Legolas surfs down a flight of stairs on a shield while shooting his bow at a bunch of orcs. I thought it was a cheesy and unwelcome aspect of a scene that was otherwise good but some people loved it. Would that be an example of awesome aversion?

I think that's a really good example, because like you I hated that scene. I don't know that that is an example of "awesome aversion" but it is an example of one of the reasons "The Rule of Cool" is a terrible rule.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I'm thinking of that scene from one of the Lord of the Rings movies where Legolas surfs down a flight of stairs on a shield while shooting his bow at a bunch of orcs. I thought it was a cheesy and unwelcome aspect of a scene that was otherwise good but some people loved it. Would that be an example of awesome aversion?
No, thats just taste aversion. Now, if you limit the ability of players to do things like this, despite the rules or not, then that might be awesome aversion. (This is one of the reasons I like bespoke games so much. They give a strong impression of the types of game play to expect. D&D to me is sword and sorcery up to high fantasy, but to others its Marvel and Anime.)

I like the magic spell comparison. If my ranger can shield surf anytime he wants to, that sucks for the caster who has to use their limited spell slots to do the same. On the flip side, folks don't tend to like martials only being able to shield surf X amounts per day. Im trying to rectify it in my head. Would it work if one side (casters) have specific magic tricks, but martials have general stunt tricks?
 
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Lord Shark

Adventurer
I agree with what you wrote here, in that the more freedom you allow stunting the more pressure you put on the DM to maintain game balance. (I'm sure plenty of DMs have run into the "if I allow you to blind that guy with some dirt you picked up, than our fights become nothing but flinging dirt" issue.)
Uh huh. This is why in the pre-3E era (at least in my experience), you never, eeeeeever saw a fighter try to trip, or disarm, or try any swashbuckling tricks. Most DMs who tried to adjudicate those sorts of actions fell back on the called shot rules, so the player ended up eating a stiff penalty in exchange for minimal effect, and quickly learned there was no point in doing anything other than "I swing at that guy." As flawed as 3E's rules for maneuvers are, they were light-years beyond earlier editions.

I think that's a really good example, because like you I hated that scene. I don't know that that is an example of "awesome aversion" but it is an example of one of the reasons "The Rule of Cool" is a terrible rule.

And I thought that scene was a heck of a lot of fun, and I wish more games empowered players to try that sort of thing rather than playing conservatively.
 

We often talk about trust- especially how some games are "high trust" (in that the players have to trust the DM to make fair rulings). The flip side that we rarely mention, and what I think awesomeness aversion speaks to, is that "high trust" settings also require the DMs to trust the players. That the players are playing to the fiction, and not just looking for a loophole (which ends up in adversarial play, which is fun for no one).

I would add that everyone has to understand and stick to the tone of the game. This is a hard thing to establish, and not even because of a discrepancy of vision between GM and players, but because of that discrepancy among the players themselves.
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
Now, if you limit the ability of players to do things like this, despite the rules or not, then that might be awesome aversion.

Now we're back to "MMI" (which in my experience is not used to disparagingly refer to a playstyle overall but individual abilities or rulings - though that may be splitting hairs), where some players will feel cheated when they say they want to do as Legolas did and I quote some high acrobatics DC for doing it without busting your butt and not giving much benefit for success aside from maybe getting to the bottom of the steps faster (depending on how long they are). Making something difficult is often translated by some players as "The DM doesn't want you to do that" even when it is just "You can try to do that if you want, but I want you to understand it is difficult before you try, so it doesn't feel sprung on you."

I understand that some players might feel like I am squelching their ability to do something cool - but my perspective is, "If getting to the bottom of the steps faster is really that important to you, you will take the risk of it, and if it is not - why risk it just to look cool?"
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I agree with what you wrote here, in that the more freedom you allow stunting the more pressure you put on the DM to maintain game balance. (I'm sure plenty of DMs have run into the "if I allow you to blind that guy with some dirt you picked up, than our fights become nothing but flinging dirt" issue.)

I'd also say that the more the DM allows unenumerated powers, the more that renders the "character-building" portion of the game (that many players are heavily invested in) inconsequential. That's not such a big deal in a generally freeform game like OD&D, but it's a pretty big deal if you're playing any 21st century version of D&D.

You know ... you have a point there. The char-gen minigame has really become a maxigame.

And I totally get it. When I make a character now in 5e, it's a very different process than when I do the same for a TSR-era game (OD&D, 1e, B/X).

For the TSR-era game, I crave simplicity. Not knowing anything about the character until it's revealed in play. My concept would be something like, "He's a fighter. He has a sword."

But when I make a 5e character, I have to have a concept and then I tinker around endlessly with options to see if I can make the concept come to life. Now it's, "What if Clint Eastwood's Man with No Name and Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday had an unholy love child with Nic Cage's Ghost Rider... and he was forced to wander the Domains of Dread because he was reborn as a vengeance-fueled killer due to a terrible deal he made with his warlock patron?"
 

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