Controllers need more powers?

[Minigiant]

4E control seems very different from 3.X control. Before you control cast a spell and if it hits, the target is messed up until someone saves him. Now, when you hit someone, they are messed up for 1-3 turns and get back into their groove. And the fights are a whole lot more rounds now. No weapons based OHKO move to speed up every encounter.

In a standard encounter, you're probably only using your at will and encounter powers. You might use a daily if you feel you need it. But the fight is so long. Those roles can survive on 2 at wills and a couple of encounter powers because they only have 2 or 3 type of powers. And they get one as a class feature. Strikers just need stab, stab harder, and shift. Defenders need attack, defend, and mark. Leaders just need attack, heal and give saving throw.

The poor controller has take out minions, brutes, soldiers, artillery, controllers, lurkers, and leaders. And the same power you use to make a brute's day bad is not the same one you use on an artillery. And the power wears off in 1-3 tuns. And if it's an encounter power, you only have 1 shot most of the time.

Enemies come in 4 basic types: tough melee, soft but fast melee, ranged, and leader.

Immobilized/slowed/prone- These condition are great against both melee enemy types for they keep them away. Does little to stop on ranged dudes unless they need to run from your strikers. This make Ray of Frost so good.

Pure Damage AOE- Pure damage AOE power deals low to decent damage. They are very good versus the soft target like controllers, lurkers, artillery, and minions. But 10 damage on a 100+ HP brute...

Weakened- Great but it's only on encounter and daily powers so you got 1 shot and 1-3 turns of half damage. And non-AOE controllers and leaders don't care.

Blinded- see weaken except now AOE controllers and leaders don't care.

Dazed/Stunned- The ultimate conditions. But it's only on encounter and daily powers so you got 1 shot and 1-3 turns of it.

I can go one for walls, clouds, terrain, zones, push, pull, grapple, but you get the point.

Controllers can't cover every enemy type and the one's they can stop they can only stop for 1-3 turns unless they have it as at will.

Need at will "Target is blinded" now.

 

[Griogre]

Actually the controller is suppose to take out minions, solders and other mulitple monsters, the strikers are suppose to take out the single targets. Pretty much the wizard is crowd control not solo control.

 

[Roxlimn]

Ray of Frost essentially allows you to kite at will. As long as you hit, you (alone) can kill a single melee-only monster with that power, though it might take a while. That's plenty strong.

Scorching Burst and Thunderwave are both at-will AoEs. No other class gets that. As long as you target two or more targets with it, you'll be competitive or better with a Ranger's Twin Strike power. Your MM is a basic attack that benefits from Bracers of the Perfect Shot, so they should scale just as well as any other class's basic attack.

 

[Rechan]

Among other things, controllers seem to be the masters of giving secondary abilities. You might not be turning that minotaur into a greasy stain, but you're going to weaken, stun, and immobilize him so the rogue can turn him into burgers.

 

[Minigiant]

There a guy in the back, shooting holes into your defender with a bow, sling, or wand. All you at will are useless for control vs artillery.

Ray of Frost: Slowed? He isn't moving.
Thunderwave: Not enough range
MM or S Ray: a bit of damage? Yawn.
Cloud of daggers: a bit more damage?

I hope you have that at will they just made Illusionary Ambush or you gotta use an encounter or daily power. Pray it hits. Pray it sticks or your striker kills the dude with the bow. Because if you miss or he makes the save, you can't control it again.

 

[neobolts]

There a guy in the back, shooting holes into your defender with a bow, sling, or wand. All you at will are useless for control vs artillery.

Ray of Frost: Slowed? He isn't moving.
Thunderwave: Not enough range
MM or S Ray: a bit of damage? Yawn.
Cloud of daggers: a bit more damage?

I hope you have that at will they just made Illusionary Ambush or you gotta use an encounter or daily power. Pray it hits. Pray it sticks or your striker kills the dude with the bow. Because if you miss or he makes the save, you can't control it again.

Is it a coordination issue? Lock down whatever your defender is toe-to-toe with and have him bumrush that annoying artillery foe.

Is it a striker problem? You mention the striker ally, is your striker alone not enough to beat down the artillery? Is there not enough pull/pull/slide/curse raining down from your striker?

One more thought...Is this an issue of not "finding your groove" in combat? Is your DM building encounters that don't speak to your role, perhaps?

 

[Starfox]

A sessions seems to be about 3 fights, then you take a long rest. That means you can, on average, use more than one per day ability per encounter once you get past the first levels.

I really don't see this as much of a problem.

Controllers do seem to have a weakness to Artillery. I think thats intentional - artillery and lurkers are supposed to be your nemesi. Its the defenders job to move up to and engage those.

 

[theNater]

There a guy in the back, shooting holes into your defender with a bow, sling, or wand. All you at will are useless for control vs artillery.

Ray of Frost: Slowed? He isn't moving.
Thunderwave: Not enough range
MM or S Ray: a bit of damage? Yawn.
Cloud of daggers: a bit more damage?

I hope you have that at will they just made Illusionary Ambush or you gotta use an encounter or daily power. Pray it hits. Pray it sticks or your striker kills the dude with the bow. Because if you miss or he makes the save, you can't control it again.

Two points. Firstly, if there's just one guy back there, it's not our problem. That what strikers are for. If there's more than one guy back there, Scorching Burst just became much more attractive.

Second, once we are resolved to using an encounter or daily power, I don't see why we should put up with any of this "pray it hits" business. Wall of Fog will certainly disrupt the incoming arrows, stones, or bolts much more efficiently than dazing the target will.

 

[Minigiant]

The situations that resulted in this topic involved the striker being already busy. In one particular encounter, the striker was busy taking out the enemy controller and the defender and leader were handling the brutes. So it was up to me to take the gnoll with the bow.

The controller will eventually have to handle lurkers, artillery, controller, and leaders. Most of your anti-ranged/stealth/aura powers are daily powers. So anytime you have more ranged/stealth/aura foes than strikers, you will have to drop a daily or hopelessly shoot at it with at will powers 'til a striker or defender kills their target.

 

[Ahglock]

Actually the controller is suppose to take out minions, solders and other mulitple monsters, the strikers are suppose to take out the single targets. Pretty much the wizard is crowd control not solo control.

I hate that philosophy. It is essentially saying defenders and controllers are the side kicks to the hero of the story, the striker.

Taking out the suckers that you did not want to be bothered with is not an attractive class feature, taking hits so someone else can kill the bad guy is also unimpressive.

Giving one role the I am the guy who kills the real opposition, everyone else is my support crew is not exactly fun for anyone but the striker.

So I am not sure changing the game from the wizard handles everything in the fight, to the ranger handles all the tough stuff in the fight, is a great change.