Converting Epic Level Beings

[BOZ]

Physical stats sound good, and I agree with your ideas for mental stats. Maybe Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36?

good deal.

Yeah, that troubles me too. Maybe we can extrapolate (at a near-infinite level) from the purple worm, which is 80 feet long, yet only has a space/reach of 20/15 and has a tail attack. Perhaps Jormy's tail just appears at some point within range of his senses to attack. We could give it a reach equal to its longest vision/blindsense/tremorsense/etc. Whaddya think?

that does give me the idea of giving him blindsense/sight around his entire body - I mean, his head is only in one place, while his body is many many miles long - it would suck if he couldn't detect creatures walking up on his body!

Let's make things simple and say that his body is extremely flexible rather than rigid, and he can automatically form a coil at any point along his body (in fact, maybe he is much longer than the world's circumference, and he coils naturally along his entire length). That would give him the ability to make maybe a slam attack against any number of creatures (one per round though), so that he may constrict them. I would put the range equal to his blindy-vision at that point.

Given his grapple check below, constriction is just about a death sentence to anyone.

Using the ol' "divide by 4.5" rule yields 66, which isn't a bad number. The non-deity Bahamut has 53 HD and Tiamat 49 HD, so he eclipses the other badass unique dragons. That also puts him in line with ancient force and prismatic dragons.

66 HD is a good number. I would hardly say he eclipses Bahamut and Tiamat as gods, because they have other powers that he lacks, but perhaps he does so as non-deity dragons.

For regeneration, how about making it work against everything except say "good and bludgeoning" weapons, so that Thor's hammer will hurt him fully?

For the head severing, I was thinking that Thor does 116 damage with every hit, and on a x3 critical he would do 348, so we need to make the sever more than that - say, 400 damage on a single hit. Yes, the point is that this is an almost impossible feat.

Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent
Colossal Dragon
Hit Dice: 66d12+1,782 (2,211 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: X ft (X squares)
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +X natural, +13 deflection), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +66/+114
Attack: Bite +90 melee (8d6+32 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +90 melee (8d6+32 plus poison)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: constrict, improved grab, death throes, poison
Special Qualities: damage reduction 25/epic, darkvision X ft., immunities, instantaneous movement, low-light vision, regeneration X, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +62 Ref +35 Will +44
Abilities: Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36
Skills: 966
Feats: 23

 

[BOZ]

oh, you sneaky devil you.

 

[Shade]

Heh.

Alright, now we're rocking.

Speed: Uhh....any thoughts?

AC: The force and prismatic dragons of near his HD have a natural armor bonus of 64-72 and a deflection bonus of +22-27.

Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (head only?)

SA: Add frightful presence
SQ: Add blindsense x ft. and replace low-light vision with keen senses.

 

[Shade]

that does give me the idea of giving him blindsense/sight around his entire body - I mean, his head is only in one place, while his body is many many miles long - it would suck if he couldn't detect creatures walking up on his body!

Agreed!

Let's make things simple and say that his body is extremely flexible rather than rigid, and he can automatically form a coil at any point along his body (in fact, maybe he is much longer than the world's circumference, and he coils naturally along his entire length). That would give him the ability to make maybe a slam attack against any number of creatures (one per round though), so that he may constrict them. I would put the range equal to his blindy-vision at that point.

Given his grapple check below, constriction is just about a death sentence to anyone.

I like it! Thank goodness for freedom of movement.

66 HD is a good number. I would hardly say he eclipses Bahamut and Tiamat as gods, because they have other powers that he lacks, but perhaps he does so as non-deity dragons.

For regeneration, how about making it work against everything except say "good and bludgeoning" weapons, so that Thor's hammer will hurt him fully?

Perfect!

For the head severing, I was thinking that Thor does 116 damage with every hit, and on a x3 critical he would do 348, so we need to make the sever more than that - say, 400 damage on a single hit. Yes, the point is that this is an almost impossible feat.

Sounds reasonable (at this extreme level).

 

[BOZ]

Speed: Uhh....any thoughts?

actually, yes. I was thinking there are two ways we can go about his speed.

1. Jormy is so big now, that he really cannot move his whole mass as he pleases. He can actually move pretty quickly, but cannot turn – he is stuck in the same “circle” around the globe that he has been in for some time. This allows him to rotate around the planet, and can put his head along that “circle” as he pleases as a full round action.

2. Jormy can move as quickly as he pleases, placing his head at any spot on the planet he wishes. This is much more useful, but can be… rather destructive to the planet. as with the above one, his movement is a full round action to place his head where he wants.

AC: The force and prismatic dragons of near his HD have a natural armor bonus of 64-72 and a deflection bonus of +22-27.

as you said before, they have a much higher Cha score than we gave Jormy, which might account for the higher deflection bonus. As for the natural armor, I approve muchly. of course, Thor will still hit him just about every time with an attack bonus of +109 on the first hit…

Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (head only?)

yeah, we could use that for the head, since even his head is likely to be Colossal.

SA: Add frightful presence
SQ: Add blindsense x ft. and replace low-light vision with keen senses.

For the blindsense, we should state that it extends to 60 feet away from his entire body (not a 60 foot radius). I think that should be sufficient, and as said before the slam/constrict should have a reach equal to the blindsense.

 

[Shade]

actually, yes. I was thinking there are two ways we can go about his speed.

1. Jormy is so big now, that he really cannot move his whole mass as he pleases. He can actually move pretty quickly, but cannot turn – he is stuck in the same “circle” around the globe that he has been in for some time. This allows him to rotate around the planet, and can put his head along that “circle” as he pleases as a full round action.

2. Jormy can move as quickly as he pleases, placing his head at any spot on the planet he wishes. This is much more useful, but can be… rather destructive to the planet. as with the above one, his movement is a full round action to place his head where he wants.

Why not both, using either as he pleases?

as you said before, they have a much higher Cha score than we gave Jormy, which might account for the higher deflection bonus. As for the natural armor, I approve muchly. of course, Thor will still hit him just about every time with an attack bonus of +109 on the first hit…

Yeah, it appears for the epic dragons that deflection bonus=Cha modifier. That wold give Jormy a +13 bonus if we decide to give him one.

yeah, we could use that for the head, since even his head is likely to be Colossal.

Cool.

For the blindsense, we should state that it extends to 60 feet away from his entire body (not a 60 foot radius). I think that should be sufficient, and as said before the slam/constrict should have a reach equal to the blindsense.

Gotcha. That makes sense to me.

 

[BOZ]

Why not both, using either as he pleases?

are you trying to hurt my head?


OK, which of these should he have immunity or resistance to?
transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.

His regeneration should be 400 points per round, in case a creature manages to sever his head with the wrong type of weapon.

Take a look at what I’ve written up so far and tell me if it’s OK:

COMBAT
By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack a Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If a creature successfully deals enough lethal damage to destroy Jormungandr’s head, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks. Creatures within X feet of Jorumangandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially effected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to his frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become (panicked?) for X rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body. Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.

 

[Shade]

are you trying to hurt my head?

No, I'm just trying to boggle your mind.

OK, which of these should he have immunity or resistance to?
transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.

Let me get back to you on this...I'm checking mythology sites for more info on Jormy.

His regeneration should be 400 points per round, in case a creature manages to sever his head with the wrong type of weapon.

Sweet.

Take a look at what I’ve written up so far and tell me if it’s OK:

COMBAT
By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack a Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If a creature successfully deals enough lethal damage to destroy Jormungandr’s head, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks. Creatures within X feet of Jorumangandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially effected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to his frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become (panicked?) for X rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body. Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.[/QUOTE]

This all looks good thus far.

 

[Shade]

Additional stuff I've gathered from mythology sites:

"Not only could Jörmungand kill its victim by crushing constriction, the Midgard Serpent's venom was lethal even against the gods."

We might need to explain in its poison entry that even creatures immune to poison are vulnerable (but maybe get a bonus on their save?).

"The Midgard Serpent was the largest serpent in the universe. Its name was either Jörmungand (Jormungand) or Jörmungandr. The moment of its birth, the Aesir abducted Jörmungand and Fenrir. Odin threw Jörmungand into the sea. Jörmungand grew so long, that its body encircled the entire world (Earth), which was why it was, called the Midgard Serpent ("World Serpent").

Thor once tried to kill Jörmungand with his mighty warhammer, Mjollnir, but failed to harm the serpent. Thor immediately threw Midgard Serpent back into the sea. Thor would later meet his death at Ragnarök, when he succumbed to the deadly venom of Jörmungand."

Flavor text.

"Thor's conflict with Jormungandr does not end with this story however. Thor and Jormungandr are destined to meet once more, at Ragnarok, (Ragnarok is the Norse equivalent of Armageddon) where Thor will finally succeed in slaying the Midgard Serpent, but in the course of the battle, will inhale so much of the dragon's poisonous breath that, as he attempts to walk away in victory, he will fall down dead on the ninth step."

"Thor and Jormungand meet at Ragnarok, where Thor kills the serpent, but then succumbs to the venom, which it has spat at him."

It appears that he also can spread his poison via breath weapon, in addition to spreading it with his bite and blood.

"The third major dragon of the Norse mythos is the World Serpent or Midgard Serpent, Jormungandr. Midgard was the Norse name for the realm of humans, and Jormungandr was known as the Midgard Serpent because he lived in the waters which surrounded the human world and he grew to be so large that he stretched all the way around Midgard and, as a manifestation of the Ouroborus, he began to devour his own tail."

"When Thor was convinced that they had rowed far enough to be in the vicinity of the Midgard Serpent, he put down the oars, baited his hook with the bull's head, and cast it into the ocean. Jormungandr immediately took the bait, and a fierce battle ensued. Thor braced himself so hard against the floor of the row boat that his legs broke right through its planks. Jormungandr reared its massive head out of the water, and Thor and the great serpent were brought face to face. Thor was just about to strike a death blow to Jormungandr with his great hammer, Mjolnir, when Hymir, fearing for his life, took out his knife and cut Thor's line. Thor threw Mjolnir, but it was too late. Jormungandr had already escaped and returned to the depths of the ocean."

Since Jormy seems to reside mostly in the ocean, I think we should give him water breathing or the Aquatic/Water subtype and amphibious quality.

"Jormundgandr is the son of the mischievous God Loki and the Frost Goddess Angrboda. He is a monstrous serpent, destined to die by Thor's hand at the battle of Ragnarok. "

Flavor text.

"Jormungandr is sometimes pictured with three heads, symbolic of his existence in all three realms of Norse Cosmology."

Not sure if this has any impact.

"...its movements were responsible for fatal storms and tidal waves. "

Maybe something like this, from the MM2's leviathan?

Swamping (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can create waves up to 40 feet high by rising from the water and then slamming its enormous tail flukes or head against the surface. This causes any sailing vessel within 300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor) check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5, longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.

 

[BOZ]

No, I'm just trying to boggle your mind.

well, either he can move anywhere he wants, or he can't.

Additional stuff I've gathered from mythology sites:

"Not only could Jörmungand kill its victim by crushing constriction, the Midgard Serpent's venom was lethal even against the gods."

We might need to explain in its poison entry that even creatures immune to poison are vulnerable (but maybe get a bonus on their save?).

see, now that even supports what I was saying before. Wonderful! let me give that a try.

“Epic Poison” (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 70, initial damage X Con, secondary damage X Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Jormungandr’s poison is so deadly that all living creatures, even deities and creatures with an immunity to poison, must succeed on the saving throw or take the listed damage.

thiking… Thor’s Fort save is 61, so even he would have to worry about a DC that high.

I like the flavor text info that you posted, but I don’t see a whole lot about immunities/resistances (once again: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.)

It appears that he also can spread his poison via breath weapon, in addition to spreading it with his bite and blood.

I think I’ll opt to leave that out.

Since Jormy seems to reside mostly in the ocean, I think we should give him water breathing or the Aquatic/Water subtype and amphibious quality.

amphibious, definitely, because he can be on land and water (at the same time). Aquatic subtype maybe…?

Not sure if this has any impact.

I’ll leave out the three heads part too. The thing about mythology is that it tends to vary a lot by source – you kind of have to pick and choose which parts you want.

"...its movements were responsible for fatal storms and tidal waves. "

Maybe something like this, from the MM2's leviathan?

Swamping (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can create waves up to 40 feet high by rising from the water and then slamming its enormous tail flukes or head against the surface. This causes any sailing vessel within300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor)check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5,longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.

I don’t know about that. Besides, I think his ability to smash just by moving would be far more dramatic – like smashing whole towns in one movement and such.