Converting Epic Level Beings

[Shade]

First off, regarding monsters in the ELH… I think the designers had good intentions in mind, but I think they really screwed some things up in terms of monster design by having so many non-unique epic monsters. When the “ordinary” monsters of that type are so powerful already, how much more powerful does a unique monster of that type need to be? So I never have, and likely never will, set the power level of a conversion based on something in the ELH. If you need a monster with 50+ HD, I say give it class levels or advance it normally.

The archfiends in the BoVD all have HD in their 20s and 30s. granted, this book came out before the power climb of 3.5, so that may be besides the point. However, I can’t think of a good reason to make Cerberus higher than the most powerful of the archfiends – but maybe it couldn’t hurt to put him in the midst of them.

I’m willing to go as high as 32-HD, 10 over my original estimation, but no more than that.

Epic-hata'!

But seriously, 50 HD ain't that big a deal anymore. The tarrasque has 48 HD at CR 20. The greater siege crab has 32 HD at CR 18. The battletitan dinosaur has 36 HD at CR 16. It's the abilities that make-or-break the critter.

I found this out recently when making critters to challenge my epic party. Compare Dispater with his "weak" 34 HD to the higher-CR 3-head sirrush in the ELH, which has 45 HD. The sirrush has great attacks, pounce, and a stunning roar, while ol' dispater can turn you to iron with a touch (save DC 40) and then reduce you to dust with another touch.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if all Cerby has going for him is brute strength and 3 bites, the extra HD aren't gonna make him eclipse the archfiends. Now if he has a truckload of spell-like abilities, that's another story.

All that said, I'll settle for 32 HD.

 

[Clifford]

Maybe a fiery breath weapon? I know the old cerby dosent have one but i think in spirit he should he is the classic hell hound after all.

Anyway figure cerby has to heep even the most powerful heroes in and out of hadies. So i think maybe some higher hd are in order.

38 dosent sound too bad for hit dice but those "Stock Bracherus" have bout that many.

Cliff

 

[BOZ]

is he supposed to be able to hold his own against demon lords, titans, and such, or is he just Hades' pet?

Epic-hata'!

i've been called worse.

 

[Shade]

Maybe a fiery breath weapon? I know the old cerby dosent have one but i think in spirit he should he is the classic hell hound after all.

A cool idea for a variant, but we try to be very faithful to the source material with our conversions.

Anyway figure cerby has to heep even the most powerful heroes in and out of hadies. So i think maybe some higher hd are in order.

is he supposed to be able to hold his own against demon lords, titans, and such, or is he just Hades' pet?

That is a good question. We know from mythology that it had to keep out mortals of any "power level", but did Cerby ever try to keep out deities or demigods (the closest comparison to archfiends in Greek mythology)?

i've been called worse.

Just teasing.

 

[BOZ]

That is a good question. We know from mythology that it had to keep out mortals of any "power level", but did Cerby ever try to keep out deities or demigods (the closest comparison to archfiends in Greek mythology)?

I don’t think there was very much of a distinction – if any. I’ve seen the same beings referred to as gods and as not-gods in varying sources. Some say the titans were gods, some don’t. Cerby should definitely be a CR 20 at least, but I don’t know that he should be able to whup an epic-level party per se.

 

[Shade]

Maybe we should work Cerby in reverse...decide on his CR first, then tweak his HD to fit the CR?

 

[BOZ]

that might work. i say CR 20. he shouldn't be undefeatable - remember, myths might say that something cannot be beaten or stopped, but in D&D anything can be beaten.

something that can beat cerberus is likely to attract the attention of more powerful beings anyway...

don't forget the poison spit, petrifying gaze, SR, and fast healing. we could probably give him a little more beyond that, as the situation warrants; we will debate this at a later time.

 

[Shade]

Cool. Then we can use the tarrasque as a baseline.

Big T has:

48 Hit Dice
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

I think we'll easily be able to accommodate the desired Hit Dice from earlier.

 

[BOZ]

well, scent for sure. maybe blindsight too.

DR wouldn't hurt, and some resistances and possibly an immunity or two.

augmented critical sounds nice.

keep in mind, for big T i'm sure there are factors keeping his CR so low compared to his HD. low Int would be one, i'm sure.

 

[Shade]

DR/epic seems appropriate.

For resistances/immunities, I'd look to the Hades petitioners and the yugoloths for inspiration:

• Hades petitioners: Cold and fire immunity; electricity resistance 10, acid resistance 10
• Yugoloths: Immunity to acid and poison. Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.

So immunity or resistance to acid, cold, and fire, electricity resistance 10, and possibly immunity to poison (which ties in nicely with his poison spittle).

I think this ability from the gorynych would also suit him nicely.

Rend (Ex): If a gorynych hits with two bite attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the victim apart like a wishbone. This attack automatically deals an extra 4d8+13 points of damage.