Converting Epic Level Creatures
- Thread starter Shade
- Start date
Cleon
Hero
Well the original Andromidus had an AC of -2. That's near the high end of the AC range of the AD&D greater titans, who range from 2 to -3.
I'd rather our conversion had an AC toward the upper ranks rather than keeping it down.
Let's compare the ACs of the extant Greater Titans and see if that gets us anywhere:
Atlas: 1E: –3; 3E: 44 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +33 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 39
Coeus: 1E: 2; 3E: 41 (-2 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 36
Crius: 1E: –3; 3E: 41 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 35
Cronus/Kronus: 1E: 2; 3E: 40 (-8 size, +10 Dex, +28 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 30
Epimetheus: 1E: –3; 3E: 41 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 35
Oceanus: 1E: –3; 3E: 42 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +33 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 35
Prometheus: 1E: –2; 3E: 55 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +32 natural, +14 insight), touch 23, flat-footed 48
Generic Greater Titan: 1E: 4 to –3; 3E: 39 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 34
Hmm, that's odd.
All of our Titan conversions have ACs around 41-44 except for Prometheus, who has an AC eleven points higher than the next toughest (Atlas's AC 44). Despite many of those 40-odd AC Titans having slightly better ACs than Prometheus in earlier editions.
Ah, I see... Prometheus has his Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to AC. If the other Titans had insight bonuses too it would zonk their ACs up into the 50s to be at a similar level to Prometheus, although they'd still all be slightly short of his AC 55:
Atlas: AC: 54 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +33 natural, +10 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 49
Coeus AC: 52 (-2 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural, +11 insight), touch 24, flat-footed 47
Crius: AC: 54 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural, +13 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 48
Cronus/Kronus AC: 51 (-8 size, +10 Dex, +28 natural, +11 insight), touch 23, flat-footed 41
Epimetheus AC: 54 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural, +13 insight), touch 21, flat-footed 48
Oceanus AC: 51 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +33 natural, +9 insight), touch 18, flat-footed 44
Prometheus AC: 55 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +32 natural, +14 insight), touch 23, flat-footed 48
Generic Greater Titan AC: 48 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural, +9 insight), touch 20, flat-footed 43
Hmm... it looks like the problem is either Prometheus's AC is way too high or the other Greater Titans ACs are way too low.
If it was up to me I'd let the other Greater Titans have an insight bonus too and maybe tweak Atlas, Crius and Oceanus's NA up a few points.
However that seems impractical at the moment, since the (a) the conversions were "signed off" on long ago, and (b) the Creature Catalog's down!
Cleon
Hero
Getting back on topic, my current preference for Andromidus's AC is:
Armor Class: 54 (-4 size, +4 Dex, +30 natural, +14 insight), touch 24, flat-footed 50
If he didn't have the insight bonus that'd be AC 40, touch 10, flat-footed 36, which at the low end of the Greater Titans we have listed.
EDIT: I'd also be OK with +28 NA. At least 52 has a 2 in it like the original's AC -2.
:Armor Class: 52 (-4 size, +4 Dex, +28 natural, +14 insight), touch 24, flat-footed 48
Last edited:
Cleon
Hero
Hmm... I'm starting to like the +28 NA version better.
Still, it makes little difference to me.
Which do you fancy?
Cleon
Hero
Dice roll! 1=+28, 2=+30
[roll0]
EDIT: looks like my vote goes to +30
That's an idea! Let's see, how does the die rolling go again...?
Cleon
Hero
{roll}XdY{/roll} with square brackets instead of curly ones. But you can only roll in a new post, not during an edit.
[roll0]
EDIT: That looks like a conflict.
Ta. I thought it was something like that.
Let's have a go then...
[roll0]
Cleon
Hero
EDIT: That looks like a conflict.
I don't know, the random number generator gods appear to be favouring the 1 result.
Cleon
Hero
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
OK, 22 skills at max ranks. It might be easier to say what he doesn't get! Anyway,
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot seem definite to me. That's 11. I'd also give Knowledge (arcana), (history), (nature), (religion), and (the planes) for sure. Up to 16 now. Do you care to make a case for anything else? I didn't feel like most of the physical ones were too flavorfully appropriate, and it's not clear to me he'd need Use Magic Device.
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot seem definite to me. That's 11. I'd also give Knowledge (arcana), (history), (nature), (religion), and (the planes) for sure. Up to 16 now. Do you care to make a case for anything else? I didn't feel like most of the physical ones were too flavorfully appropriate, and it's not clear to me he'd need Use Magic Device.
Cleon
Hero
Would it not be easier to see what Prometheus has and then adjust them?
Prometheus has:
Intelligence: 40
Skills: Appraise +57, Balance +30, Bluff +39, Climb +48, Concentration +60, Craft (alchemy) +50, Craft (sculpting) +83, Decipher Script +60, Diplomacy +68, Disguise +12 (+14 in character), Gather Information +54, Heal +56, Intimidate +14, Jump +52, Knowledge (arcana) +70, Knowledge (geography) +55, Knowledge (history) +60, Knowledge (local) +65, Knowledge (nature) +55, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +50, Knowledge (religion) +55, Knowledge (the planes) +55, Listen +51, Perform (oratory) +57, Perform (sing) +47, Perform (string instruments) +52, Search +50, Sense Motive +71, Spellcraft +72 (+74 scrolls), Spot +51, Survival +14 (+16 on other planes, +16 following tracks, +16 keep from getting lost, +16 aboveground), Use Magic Device +54 (+58 scrolls)
So Prometheus has skill ranks in 29 skills (He doesn't have any skill points in Disguise, Intimidate and Survival, just the base modifier plus synergy bonuses):
These skills are:
Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (alchemy), Craft (sculpting), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Perform (oratory), Perform (sing), Perform (string instruments), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device
Of those, it appears he's only maxed out a few of them - Craft (sculpting), Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Sense Motive and Spellcraft. The others are a short of being maxed, with a few being significantly short of maxed. e.g. Prometheus has 20 ranks in Jump and 30 in Perform (sing).
So, are there any of those that seem inappropriate for Andromidus, or any skills Andromidus needs that are missing?
Cleon
Hero
Looking through the adventure, one of the "sets" used in Andromidus's dreamscapes is "a section of underground passage with doors and chambers" and another is "a long, twisting cave with rough walls and chambers".
That makes me think Knowledge (dungeoneering) ought to be one of his skills. How about we give him that instead of Prometheus's Perform (string instrument) and/or Perform (sing)?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Yes, I'd be fine with swapping Know. (dungeoneering) in for one or the other of the Performs or really even Know. (local) which seems weird for extraplanar titans. Local for what? Anyway, I'd probably add Intimidate also, since Andromidus seems like he'd have very good social-type skills, but it's not necessary.
Cleon
Hero
How about removing both of the Perform skills in question and giving him Knowledge (dungeoneering) AND Intimidate?
Cleon
Hero
Let's see. We've got 29 skills:
Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (alchemy), Craft (sculpting), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Perform (oratory), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device
But Andromidus only has enough 946 SPs, enough for 22 skills maxed out to 43 ranks.
Hmm... we could have seven skills maxed out to 43, nineteen with 30 ranks and three with 25 ranks, or some other arrangement with 20-30 ranks in the other skills.
Is seven enough for the key competences though?
You've suggested Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot for the essential skills. That's eleven. I don't think we need Heal, Gather Information and Intimidate maxed out, and we could also shave some ranks off Search.
So how about:
7 skills with 43 ranks [maxed out] - Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Listen, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot
4 skills with 40 ranks - Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Search
12 skills with 30 ranks - Craft (alchemy), Craft (sculpting), Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Use Magic Device
6 skills with 20 ranks - Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Jump, Perform (oratory)
