Converting Epic Level Creatures

[Cleon]

That'll do for me! We can always pick Open Minded as one of his many feats if we feel a need for more ranks.

Good-oh, I'll just update the working draft.

Better check my sums first, just to be safe.

7 skills with 43 ranks; 4 skills with 40 ranks; 12 skills with 30 ranks; 6 skills with 20 ranks

= 7*43 + 4*40 + 12*30 + 6*20
= 301 + 160 + 360 + 120
= 941

Oh dang, that's 5 points too few. We could change one of the 20 SP skills to 25 SPs to fix it, or change five of them to 21 SPs? The six skills in question are Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Jump, Perform (oratory).

I think I'll go for the +1 SPs to five skills option, with Appraise as the skill that got the short end of the stick with 20 SPs.

Let's see, that makes it:

Skill Breakdown:
Appraise 20 ranks + 14 Int (+4 synergy with alchemy or sculpting),
Balance 21 ranks +4 Dex,
Bluff 43 ranks + 10 Cha,
Climb 21 ranks +19 Str,
Concentration 43 ranks +16 Con,
Craft (alchemy) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Craft (sculpting) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Decipher Script 21 ranks + 14 Int,
Diplomacy 43 ranks + 10 Cha +12 synergy,
Disguise 0 ranks +10 Cha (+4 synergy act in character),
Gather Information 40 ranks + 10 Cha +4 synergy,
Heal 40 ranks +14 Wis,
Intimidate 40 ranks + 10 Cha +4 synergy,
Jump 21 ranks +19 St +12 speed,
Knowledge (arcana) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (dungeoneering) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (geography) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (history) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (local) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (nature) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (religion) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Knowledge (the planes) 30 ranks + 14 Int,
Listen 43 ranks +14 Wis,
Perform (oratory) 21 ranks + 10 Cha,
Search 40 ranks + 14 Int (+4 synergy finding secret doors),
Sense Motive 43 ranks +14 Wis,
Spellcraft 43 ranks + 14 Int +4 synergy (+4 synergy deciphering scrolls),
Spot 43 ranks +14 Wis,
Survival 0 ranks +14 Wis (+4 synergy aboveground, finding way and avoiding natural hazards, following tracks, on other planes, & when underground),
Use Magic Device 30 ranks + 10 Cha (+6 synergy with scrolls).

which becomes:

Skills: Appraise +34 (+38 with alchemy or sculpting), Balance +25, Bluff +53, Climb +40, Concentration +59, Craft (alchemy) +44, Craft (sculpting) +44, Decipher Script +35, Diplomacy +65, Disguise +10 (+14 act in character), Gather Information +54, Heal +54, Intimidate +54, Jump +52, Knowledge (arcana) +44, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +44, Knowledge (geography) +44, Knowledge (history) +44, Knowledge (local) +44, Knowledge (nature) +44, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +44, Knowledge (religion) +44, Knowledge (the planes) +44, Listen +57, Perform (oratory) +31, Search +54 (+58 finding secret doors), Sense Motive +57, Spellcraft +61 (+65 deciphering scrolls), Spot +57, Survival +14 Wis (+18 synergy aboveground, finding way and avoiding natural hazards, following tracks, on other planes, & when underground), Use Magic Device +40 (+46 synergy with scrolls)

Updating the Andromidus Working Draft.

Speaking of the feats, what do you feel like? I'd probably go for some metamagic and maybe a Quicken SLA or two.

Hmm... well Prometheus has:

Feats: Alertness, Combat Expertise, Craft Wondrous Item, Diligent, Improved Initiative, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Scribe Scroll (B), Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (true strike)

Epic Feats: Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Epic Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Group Inspiration, Improved Darkvision, Superior Initiative

We need to cut three of those for a start, since Prometheus's higher HD gives him 17 feats instead of 14. I'd remove the two Skill Focus [sculpting] feats and Craft Epic Wondrous Item to account for those.

Andomidus also can't use the Group Inspiration feat and I see no need for the Improved Darkvision, and I'd be game for exchanging the Alertness, Diligent, Magical Aptitude and Negotiator feats.

That leaves:

Feats: Combat Expertise, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll (B), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (true strike)
Epic Feats: Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Superior Initiative

That's eight feats, so we want to pick another six, of which at least two have to be non-epic.

Maybe Combat Reflexes and Power Attack for when his illusions fail and he turns to punching his foes into mush?

I suppose we could give him Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus and Epic Spell Focus in (illusions) to make his illusion spells even more ridiculously difficult to save against...

...or Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Epic Spell Penetration to help make sure they get through!

...of course, he's got enough Spellcraft and CLs to get Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell, although we'd have to exchange some of his existing epic feats if we wanted him to fully exploit that chain.

Hold on a moment, why does he have greater teleport prepped as a wizard spell when he's already got it as an at-will SLA? We should really exchange that for something else.

 

[freyar]

That's fine for the skills!

His greater teleport SLA is 3/day actually, but I agree that the extra use per day isn't so helpful. We could do something like teleport object if you want to keep a similar utility, but maybe summon monster VII or mage's magnificent mansion works better.

I think I like Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Multispell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration for the feats. but I could be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Cleon]

That's fine for the skills!

His greater teleport SLA is 3/day actually, but I agree that the extra use per day isn't so helpful. We could do something like teleport object if you want to keep a similar utility, but maybe summon monster VII or mage's magnificent mansion works better.

Of those I like mage's magnificent mansion the best, although I also like ethereal jaunt and limited wish.

I think I like Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Multispell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Epic Spell Penetration for the feats. but I could be persuaded otherwise.

I'd be inclined to cut the Epic Spell Penetration and double up the Autoquicken.

i.e.:

Feats: Combat Expertise, Craft Wondrous Item, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll (B), Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (true strike)
Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell×2, Multispell, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Superior Initiative

 

[freyar]

Let's go with magnificent mansion and that set of feats, in that case. Looks good!

Are we finally actually ready for the CR?

 

[Cleon]

Let's go with magnificent mansion and that set of feats, in that case. Looks good!

Updating the Andromidus Working Draft.

While updating I noticed Andromidus did not have true strike listed among his At-Will SLAs, but since Prometheus has it and we'd decided to give him Quicken SLA (true strike) I just added it in.

There'd have been little point giving Andromidus that feat if he lacked the SLA in question!

Are we finally actually ready for the CR?

Yup!

Am I right in assuming you're fine with the Neutral Good alignment?

 

[freyar]

Good catch!

Yes, NG is a good alignment for him (pun intended ).

OK, on to CR. Prometheus is CR 32, and Andromidus, as his "protege," should probably be a bit lower. On the other hand, his casting is a lot better, and Mist of Dreams is pretty potent. To counter that, Prometheus may have up to 50 HD of created critters hanging around. As always, I find this hard to judge. Maybe CR 30 for Andromidus?

 

[Cleon]

Good catch!

Yes, NG is a good alignment for him (pun intended ).

OK, on to CR. Prometheus is CR 32, and Andromidus, as his "protege," should probably be a bit lower. On the other hand, his casting is a lot better, and Mist of Dreams is pretty potent. To counter that, Prometheus may have up to 50 HD of created critters hanging around. As always, I find this hard to judge. Maybe CR 30 for Andromidus?

Yes, it's a bit trickier since Andromidus's spellcasting's so much better.

He can even spontaneously cast shades or shadow conjuration to create illusory monsters to serve him, and his illusion spell DCs are so ridiculously high they'll probably do full damage.

Oh heck, let's make it CR 30. At least his HD, saves and DR are appropriately weaker than Prometheus.

Hmm... come to think of it, should Andromidus have the same Spell Resistance as the higher-CR Prometheus? I'm OK keeping it at SR 36, since he's better with magic and all, but would be equally happy knocking a point or two off to make it SR 35 or 34.

If we decide to lower it, I prefer the SR 35 option.

 

[freyar]

Hmmm. Let's cut the SR by a point. That would help a touch.

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm. Let's cut the SR by a point. That would help a touch.

Fine by me...

Updating the Andromidus Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

OK, ready to tackle tactics, etc? This is going to be fun!

 

[Cleon]

OK, ready to tackle tactics, etc? This is going to be fun!

We've already got his basic tactics: "In combat, Andromidus uses his illusions to turn away any threat. If the illusions fail, he strikes with his fists".

 

[freyar]

Well, we could just stick with that, I guess, though it might be good to mention his casting: "In combat, Andromidus uses his illusions and defensive spells to turn away any threat. If the illusions fail, he strikes with his fists. Given advance warning of a threat, he uses divinations to determine his opponents' strengths."

 

[Cleon]

Well, we could just stick with that, I guess, though it might be good to mention his casting: "In combat, Andromidus uses his illusions and defensive spells to turn away any threat. If the illusions fail, he strikes with his fists. Given advance warning of a threat, he uses divinations to determine his opponents' strengths."

Hmm...

Andromidus is a merciful being who prefers to turn away enemies using illusions and defensive spells, although he is not adverse to using lethal force if the threat is sufficiently grave or evil. If his magic fails, he strikes with his fists. Given advance warning, Andromidus uses divinations to determine his opponents' powers and vulnerabilities.

 

[freyar]

Excellent!

I was just looking at the original version for some description and just noticed that we probably should have an ability for this:
"Andromidus has the power to see into the future. He used this ability during the Revolt of the Gods to discover who would win. He supported the Gods and was spared the fate of his fellow evil titans. While on the Prime Material Plane, he serves as an oracle for those who come to his temples inquiring after their fate."
We could just give him some SLA, but I'm inclined to give him some kind of unique SQ. We don't have much detail on this, so we have some freedom.

 

[Cleon]

Excellent!

Was that accompanied by an air guitar riff?

Updating the Andromidus Working Draft.

was just looking at the original version for some description and just noticed that we probably should have an ability for this:

"Andromidus has the power to see into the future. He used this ability during the Revolt of the Gods to discover who would win. He supported the Gods and was spared the fate of his fellow evil titans. While on the Prime Material Plane, he serves as an oracle for those who come to his temples inquiring after their fate."

We could just give him some SLA, but I'm inclined to give him some kind of unique SQ. We don't have much detail on this, so we have some freedom.

How did we miss that?!

Yes, that looks deserving of becoming an additional power or SLA.

How specific and reliable should we make it? Did Andromidus literally see what would happen during the Titan vs God Conflict and behave accordingly, or was it a vaguer vision that suggested the Gods would be the victors?

 

[freyar]

Unfortunately, I can't find an "Andromidus" anywhere in lists of the titans of Greek mythology. However, Prometheus is the titan of Forethought, has similar text in his description, and just has a few Divination SLAs. So we should either stick to SLAs or add something to Prometheus when we can edit the CC again.

 

[Cleon]

Unfortunately, I can't find an "Andromidus" anywhere in lists of the titans of Greek mythology.

Which can probably be explained by Andromidus being a made-up AD&D monster…

However, Prometheus is the titan of Forethought, has similar text in his description, and just has a few Divination SLAs. So we should either stick to SLAs or add something to Prometheus when we can edit the CC again.

Hmm... so shall we just give him some but not all of Prometheus's divination SLAs?

Since Prometheus actually has forethought in his name and title, it might not be appropriate giving Andromidus greater powers to see the future.

Although we should have something to explain why he is the Titan of "Inspired Vision" I guess.

 

[freyar]

Hmm... so shall we just give him some but not all of Prometheus's divination SLAs?

Either this or else give him and Prometheus something in addition to just SLAs. I wouldn't mind boosting Prometheus, actually.

 

[Cleon]

Either this or else give him and Prometheus something in addition to just SLAs. I wouldn't mind boosting Prometheus, actually.

I'd be quite happy to see a boosted Prometheus, but I'm a little reluctant to alter a conversion that was added to the CC over a decade ago unless it's to correct a gross error or deficit.

I'm not sure this problem quite qualifies.

Anyhow, if we go the "give him a lesser amount of SLAs" route, Prometheus has the additional divination SLAs of foresight and moment of prescience.

Neither of those seems quite right. Maybe we should just give him 3/day divination or say Andromidus uses his spells to divine the future? Of those two options, I prefer the divination SLA solution, although that would mean we should replace his divination cleric spell with another 4th level spell.

I'd suggest sending or, failing that, air walk.

Actually, speaking of Prometheus I notice he has another ability which reminded me of something:

Inspire Competence (Su): Prometheus can use any of his Perform skills to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear Prometheus. Prometheus must also be able to see the ally.

The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear Prometheus’ performance. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as Prometheus concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. Prometheus can’t inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.

The Dungeon adventure names Andromidus the "Titan of Inspired Vision" maybe be should actually give him an ability to actually, you know, inspire a mortal with a vision?

 

[freyar]

Adding divination and putting sending in the spell list works for me.

Hmmm. Inspire Vision (Su) that perhaps grants a single use of true strike to each ally affected by the performance? Or augury? Or else just re-brand Inspire Competence with an insight bonus on some kind of check (maybe a save)?