Coup de Grace and Charge
- Thread starter Balasar
- Start date
malraux
First Post
Charging is a standard action and CdG is a standard action. So no, you can't charge + CdG.
Rafe
First Post
Aye, Coup de Grace is a standard action in and of itself, not a result of a standard action.
Turns out you are correct. While it is true you can use most any power for a Coup de Grace, the Coup de Grace itself takes an independant standard action.
If you had a hypothetical power that allowed you to charge as part of the attack, you could coup de grace with a charge, but at least in the PHB all the charge related powers say "you must charge as part of this attack," meaning you replace the basic attack with the power.
About the closest you can get is coup de grace-ing with a power like deft strike or hit and run that lets you move X squares before the attack. You obviously wouldn't get the charge bonus then, though.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Remember that you can only use Coup De Grace on an adjacent opponent.
So you can use Deft Strike... but only if you're adjacent when you use the power. You can't start two squares away and use Deft Strike to Coup De Grace, but you can start adjacent, and use Deft Strike to Coup De Grace by moving two squares around the opponent (remaining adjacent).
Similarly, it's essentially impossible to charge as part of a Coup De Grace, unless you have a power that says "Move two squares and then charge"... because you need two squares to charge, and you need to be adjacent to Coup De Grace. You can't simultaneously be adjacent and two squares away, so unless you power lets you back up and then charge, you won't be in a position where both a Coup De Grace and a power-that-includes-a-charge are legal at the same time.
(Similarly, if a Ranger is adjacent to an opponent, and says "I use Nimble Strike to shift one square back, and shoot!", he provokes an OA. Not for the shift; not for the bowshot; but because he used a Ranged Power - Nimble Strike - while adjacent to an enemy.)
-Hyp.
Not sure I agree with this interpretation. You have to be adjacent when you attack the coup de grace target, yes, but you can use a special Effect of a power to get adjacent before making the attack. Unless you're also suggesting that a rogue with a short sword can't use deft strike to get to an enemy 2 squares away and then attack?
That seems to me far more likely to be an error in need of errata, not an intended feature. But by the RAW, you're correct.
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DracoSuave
First Post
You could pull it off with Dimensional Charge. Coup de Grace, using Dimensional Charge, teleport on the other side of them, and it's a charge.
WalterKovacs
First Post
For melee and for ranged definitions, If something is melee 1, melee touch, ranged X or ranged sight ... you it refers to who you can target.
However, if it has the weapon keyword, it uses the word attack over and over again. It allows you to attack a target within reach of the weapon you're wielding. Thus if you move BEFORE the attack, you need to be within range to make the attack once you attack, not necessarily before. The concept of the "special: before you attack ..." would seem to be part of the exception based design. Just like an interupt can be triggered by something, but happen "before" it [i.e. you can get hit, use the shield spell and thus not get hit], the "special: before you attack ..." is meant to similarly take place before the power that it is part of.
From the monster manual's release to the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide they "fixed" the way that "part of a charge" powers worked, going from a special: you can/must charge as part of this attack to when you charge you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack. So, they might have to reword some of the powers that are meant to be LIKE charging [X then attack]. The problem being the way that the powers are built you can have stuff like the artificer where you target an ally and then secondary target an enemy next to the ally ... but you can't "add" keywords to secondary parts. So any power that lets you move then attack either has to be considered an attack power OR it would have to be like a target personal "You may shift 1 square then make a basic ranged attack or you may make a basic ranged attack and then shift". However, that isn't possible with the rogue's deft strike. You could have two seperate powers, one has to use the first part before it can be used, and the other allows you to move two and then do the second part, that way the initial movement based power doesn't require you already be adjacent. [However, I could see how Deft Strike by RAI could be meant to be next to the person already as 2 square movement could normally get you to any other square next to the opponent and thus get into any flank you can find.]
Basically, the way powers work, it would be very difficult to pull off something like that, if it's what they are intended, unless they take advantage of the "three basic rules" like specific beats general, and the overall exception based design. So, certain specific powers allow you to do things before the power itself is considered to take place.
However, if it has the weapon keyword, it uses the word attack over and over again. It allows you to attack a target within reach of the weapon you're wielding. Thus if you move BEFORE the attack, you need to be within range to make the attack once you attack, not necessarily before. The concept of the "special: before you attack ..." would seem to be part of the exception based design. Just like an interupt can be triggered by something, but happen "before" it [i.e. you can get hit, use the shield spell and thus not get hit], the "special: before you attack ..." is meant to similarly take place before the power that it is part of.
From the monster manual's release to the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide they "fixed" the way that "part of a charge" powers worked, going from a special: you can/must charge as part of this attack to when you charge you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack. So, they might have to reword some of the powers that are meant to be LIKE charging [X then attack]. The problem being the way that the powers are built you can have stuff like the artificer where you target an ally and then secondary target an enemy next to the ally ... but you can't "add" keywords to secondary parts. So any power that lets you move then attack either has to be considered an attack power OR it would have to be like a target personal "You may shift 1 square then make a basic ranged attack or you may make a basic ranged attack and then shift". However, that isn't possible with the rogue's deft strike. You could have two seperate powers, one has to use the first part before it can be used, and the other allows you to move two and then do the second part, that way the initial movement based power doesn't require you already be adjacent. [However, I could see how Deft Strike by RAI could be meant to be next to the person already as 2 square movement could normally get you to any other square next to the opponent and thus get into any flank you can find.]
Basically, the way powers work, it would be very difficult to pull off something like that, if it's what they are intended, unless they take advantage of the "three basic rules" like specific beats general, and the overall exception based design. So, certain specific powers allow you to do things before the power itself is considered to take place.
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