Coup de grace when prone?

[Alyssia]

The question I want to throw to the EN World community is, What can you do whilst prone?
More specifically, can you coup de grace?

The problem came up in a recent 3.0 game we were playing. What had happened was....
An orc adept had cast a sleep at the party, causing our spiked chain weilding fighter to fall asleep.
The adept then closed to stand 5 feet from him.
The elven wizard, immune to sleep, used the 'aid another' action to wake the fighter.
My halfling cleric cast command "sleep" at the orc adept, who failed the save and fell asleep.
The fighter, realising he couldn't both stand up and coup de grace the orc, decided he wanted to coup de grace it from prone.

Our DM disallowed this, saying that the -4 you get with melee attacks, while prone, means you can't strike accurately enough to perform a coup de grace,(and as the other 3rd ed DM in the group I agree).

The fighters player (also my husband, so I'll have to be nice! ) disagreed.
In the end (I think) we allowed him to attack with a -4 penalty against the orc who had an effective DEX of 0 (basically -5 to its flat footed AC).

He's still not too happy , so what do other people think?
Is this the fairest answer?
And what CAN you do when prone? Attack of Opportunities? Trip? Grapple?
Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

[dravot]

The question I want to throw to the EN World community is, What can you do whilst prone?
More specifically, can you coup de grace?

I'd say that you can, but only given specific circumstances. If a halfling is prone and next to a giant, I'd say that he couldn't do a coup d'grace, as he's no where near anything vital.

 

[Darklone]

Huhm. Your average level 11 TWF twink can throw around 6 attacks while prone without any problem... why shouldn't you be able to CDG someone? Especially someone that lies next to you?

 

[Dimwhit]

There isn't anything in CDG that says you can't while prone. It just takes a full-round. In that case, I don't see why not. I could possibly see some special circumstances that would disallow it, but not this one.

 

[Alyssia]

Hmm, I understand your points.

Its just that, although there are no rules specifically mentioning it in the books, it doesn't seem right that you can hit someone accurately enough to kill them with one blow (probably), while at -4 to hit because youre lying on the floor. And with a spiked chain too (but lets not get into that! )

What about other actions when prone?

 

[Particle_Man]

Hmm, I understand your points.

Its just that, although there are no rules specifically mentioning it in the books, it doesn't seem right that you can hit someone accurately enough to kill them with one blow (probably), while at -4 to hit because youre lying on the floor. And with a spiked chain too (but lets not get into that! )

What about other actions when prone?

Nothing in the rules vs. it. If we are going for realism, I would say that two-handed slashing or bludgeoning weapons would have a harder time lining up the vital areas (maybe "a ring of free action" would help here), but have no problem with someone slitting X's throat with a dagger from a prone position, if both are prone.

 

[Dimwhit]

Hmm, I understand your points.

Its just that, although there are no rules specifically mentioning it in the books, it doesn't seem right that you can hit someone accurately enough to kill them with one blow (probably), while at -4 to hit because youre lying on the floor. And with a spiked chain too (but lets not get into that! )

What about other actions when prone?

I don't see CDG as a normal attack, like one really hard swing with a sword. I see it as more surgical than anything. Like taking a dagger and slicing deep along the throat, or burying it deep in the belly. With a spiked chain while prone? The fighter leans over to the creature, wraps the chain around it's neck (it's asleep, so the head is quickly and easily lifted), and yanks hard. A greatsword? Mabe placing the tip of it at the side, toward the armpit, and driving it in. (Sorry if the details are a little graphic.)

Anyway, I don't see a problem with it. CDG is more than just a free attack with all your strength. I don't think you need to be able to "get everything into it" so to speak.

 

[Alyssia]

I see it as more surgical than anything. Like taking a dagger and slicing deep along the throat, or burying it deep in the belly.

Exactly!
Can you do a surgical strike on a -4 penalty?
Its the automatic hit of coup de grace that gets in my way here.
Coup de grace IMHO is overpowered anyway, but thats another thread

With a spiked chain while prone? The fighter leans over to the creature, wraps the chain around it's neck (it's asleep, so the head is quickly and easily lifted), and yanks hard.

Thats exactly my hubbys argument.
He's not paying you is he?

(Sorry if the details are a little graphic.)

I'm sure I'll cope

 

[Dimwhit]

Exactly!
Can you do a surgical strike on a -4 penalty?
Its the automatic hit of coup de grace that gets in my way here.

Sure! First, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a CDG automatically hit and do critical damage? (I can't remember.)

Regardless, the -4 penalty (IMO or course) is primarily when you're prone on the ground and still engaging in combat with opponents still fighting you from above. A CDG to me seems an entirely different animal. You're not striking a moving opponent from the ground, you're basically executing a defenseless oponent. Even if the -4 penalty applies (if you still have to roll to hit), I would still allow the CDG as the opponent isn't offering the standard in-combat target.

Coup de grace IMHO is overpowered anyway, but thats another thread

And a bit unnecessary, too. But you're right, that's another thread.

Thats exactly my hubbys argument.
He's not paying you is he?

Tell your husband he's a smart man!

 

[Gaiden]

Picture this:

The blackness abates and startled your eyes snap open. Immediately your vision focuses on the worried face of your comrade. Like a crashing wave the sound of battle rushes in -

WAKE THE %^& UP!

In the background you hear the familiar soothing voice of [cleric]: "sssleep..."

Your head turns just as the body of the foul orcish caster crumples to the ground - a bit of poetic justice granted by the Gods perhaps. Without a moment's hesitation your hand, sure in its grip on your favored weapon even in unconsciousness, whips around trailing the deadly spikes with it. Much like streamers in the wind, your spiked chain dances through the air and along the ground almost caressing the throat of the soon to be corpse lying next to you. With a jerk of your back and snap of your wrist you too begin to spin and the spiked links lock in place as your chain fully wraps around the head. Each spike is like a barb securing with a sure grip around the underside of the chin, the awkward cheek bones, the temple and the pinnacle of the skull. Completing your spin you kick out off the body of the orc tearing its head to an unnatural angle. Breathing heavily, you can hear the sounds have died down around you. The battle is done. The gore that was once this creature's face and the full 6' extension of its cervical vertabrae are evidence enough to tell the tale of how this one met its fate.

...

I think the legitimacy of any combat action in terms of its realism merely has to do with how one perceives the outcome. In truth, a maneuvar that winds up doing critical damage and results in a fortitude save vs that damage is a very deadly maneuver. It will probably kill almost anything that is used against. As such, there, in my mind, are many ways of describing this. One such way is to suggest that a vital area has been pierced. However, it seems perfectly reasonable, to me, that alternative descriptioins are coherent, and perhaps sometimes better - as I have described above.