Coup de grace when prone?

[KarinsDad]

I hope that was sarcasm at work.

No, it was Hyp being accurate with the rules.

There is absolutely no rule about dropping items when asleep.

However, I view certain game element omissions to be "no brainers" when adjudicating.

DMG page 9: "Look to any similar that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance."

So, if a PC (or NPC) falls asleep and a player asks if the character dropped his weapon, I will state "This is no different than Stunned in this regard. The character is not conscious, so he cannot consciously hold onto a weapon."

It is just common sense that if Asleep, Dead, or Unconscious, a person would "drop any weapon". This makes even more sense than dropping a weapon when stunned every time (without some form of will or possibly reflex saving throw).

From a totally "literal rules perspective", however, Hyp is totally correct.

 

[DrSpunj]

Its just that, although there are no rules specifically mentioning it in the books, it doesn't seem right that you can hit someone accurately enough to kill them with one blow (probably), while at -4 to hit because youre lying on the floor.

Well, mechanically realize that the -4 to hit penalty the fighter had because he was prone is entirely negated by the +4 to hit bonus he gains because his melee target is also prone.

With the bonus completely canceling the penalty, I put my 2 coppers down with those on the "doesn't substantially change the Coup de Grace" side.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Hypersmurf]

I hope that was sarcasm at work.
-----------------------------------------------------
No, it was Hyp being accurate with the rules.

It can, of course, be both

-Hyp.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I object to it because the saving throw is almost impossible to pass!
Heck, you could quite easily kill a dragon with it!
(Of course, finding a sleeping dragon isn't easy! )
Automatic crit I can live with (within normal circumstances), just make the save easier to pass!.

Oh, and it can be used against PC's
Not a great or heroic way for your character to die.

The deadliness of CdG is a feature. It's meant to prevent the following stupid situation:

PC: I crawl up to the sleeping Big Bad Evil Guy.
PC2: Me too.
DM: Okay, you're there.
PC: I slit his throat from ear to ear with my dagger!
PC2: I bury my stilletto up to the hilt in his eye socket!
DM: Each of you roll 1d4.
PC: Er... I got a 1.
PC2: Me too.
DM: The bad guy wakes up when his hit points drop from 250 to 248. He's mad.
PC: But I slit his throat!
PC2: I stabbed his brain!
PC and PC2: He should be dead!
DM: Sorry, daggers only do 1d4.
All: This game sucks.

-z

 

[Bauglir]

It can, of course, be both

-Hyp.

There's an underlying point there too. If you can bend the rules enough to say that a sleeping creature drops its weapons, then you can bend them enough to say that a prone creature can pick up a weapon as a free action (since they don't have to bend over to pick it up...)

 

[KarinsDad]

There's an underlying point there too. If you can bend the rules enough to say that a sleeping creature drops its weapons, then you can bend them enough to say that a prone creature can pick up a weapon as a free action (since they don't have to bend over to pick it up...)

It is not a matter of bending rules. These are two totally different things.


Having a rule of dropping weapons when falling asleep is using the DM adjudication rule to state that one rule that is not there at all is replaced with a rule from a similar rule. There is no rule at all for whether you drop a weapon when you fall asleep.

Having a rule of picking up a weapon as a free action is changing a rule that already exists. There is already a rule for picking up a weapon (how do you know that when you are prone, your weapon is not at your feet and you still have to bend over to pick it up?).

I realize that this is a subtle difference, but there it is. One rule does not exist at all and is added (due to a similar rule in a similar circumstance). One rule does exist and is modified.

Granted, both of these are officially house rules. But then again, with such a strict definition of rules, it is now a house rule that you fall over when asleep. Sleep does not indicate that you fall over. It is a rule that does not exist.

But, just like it is common sense that you fall over when asleep, it is common sense that you drop anything that you are holding (in a game model where you drop anything you are holding if stunned).

In the case of picking up a weapon, it is not common sense that it is lying so close to your hand that you can easily pick it up as if it where in your hand. It could be at your feet. It could be 3 feet away. It could be under your body or caught in your cloak. There is no similar rule here that would indicate a free action should be given in this case like there is a similar rule for the dropping an item when stunned.


So, that is the difference. One is creating a similar rule. One is creating a brand new rule.

 

[Bauglir]

It's also common sense to me at least that if you just fell asleep that your weapon would be on the ground right next to your hand...

But then this is why I prefer to work with rules rather than common sense interpretations as much as possible.. Common sense is subjective.

 

[hong]

It's also common sense to me at least that if you just fell asleep that your weapon would be on the ground right next to your hand...

But then this is why I prefer to work with rules rather than common sense interpretations as much as possible.. Common sense is subjective.

And what's more, if we allowed common sense into the game, we wouldn't beable to enjoy the new pastime for 3E: adventurer tipping!


Hong "this almost beats out the NIPPLE CLAMPS OF EXQUISITE PAIN" Ooi

 

[KarinsDad]

It's also common sense to me at least that if you just fell asleep that your weapon would be on the ground right next to your hand...

Weapons don't bounce or slide when they drop?

Weapons are not in motion while the Fighter is using them and he falls asleep?

The last place a weapon would be is right next to your hand if you fell asleep.

 

[Bauglir]

That all depends on if you instantly collapse & relax your grip mid swing, or (as in my imagined version) you sort of slowly grind to a halt as you're drained of energy and fall asleep. (In which case you'd sort of droop to the ground with your sword still in hand and it would only sort of tumble out of your hand at worst rather than shooting off in some direction)