Level Up (A5E) Crafting Rules and Artisan's Tools

[Subtle Knife]

Hello, all!

I find myself vexed by mundane crafting rules once again.

On pp337-339 of the Adventurer's Guide, it has rules on using Artisan's Tools to craft objects of specific values. It looks like smithing tools is no longer an 'Artisan's Tool'? This seems odd, as smithing is what you need to forge weapons, many types of armor. But I digress....

On pp426-428 of the same book, it has rules on crafting as well, but these seem...different...from the rules on pp337-339?

It seems really unclear when to use which set of rules. Having these rules widely spaced apart in the book does not help.

I'm very happy that the armor table (pp319-320) has guidance on tools for repair and associated DCs, but it would additionally be helpful to have guidance and DCs for crafting - what tool set, what DC?

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Let's take a suit of Leather Brigandine armor (normal quality) as an example - medium armor, 20gp value. What artisan's tool(s) do you need to be proficient to craft this?

Let's assume it is Leatherworker's Tools (to fashion the leather foundation of this garment):
- according to the table on p338, the maximum value of any leatherworking craft, at a stunning DC of 25+, is 15gp. So based on this table, no one could actually ever craft Leather Brigandine of normal quality?
- according to pp426-428, it would take 10gp of materials and 2 weeks

If we assume Smith's Tools (to fashion the metal plates to be attached):
- the table on p337 provides no guidance - smith's tools are not used for crafting (tell that to any blacksmith!)
- according to pp426-428, same as above

This then calls into question as to the purpose of the rules on pp337-339?

If later I need to repair this suit of armor, I need to be proficient with Sewing Kits. OK. So my leatherworking tools aren't sufficient for that, even though I may have previously used those tools to literally sew the components together? Invoking a new 'repair' toolkit seems unnecessary to my mind - the tool you craft something with maybe ought to be useful in their repair...?

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My points:
- crafting rules should be clear and explicit in what toolset is used when, without a conflicting 'two-tier' process.
- having the repair guidance in the armor table is excellent; include similar guidance for crafting in the table!
- you can provide 'fine/masterwork/special material' item crafting guidance as modifiers on base DC, cost
- do the same for weapons!!!!
- If I break my grandfather's masterwork sword, I might want to repair that!
- put all these rules in the same place!
- artisan's tools used for crafting should be useful in repairing the same objects (Sewing Kit?!?)

 

[Raelysk]

You don't need proficiency with tools for anything, if I understand correctly.
Having proficiency only makes check easier and not a requirement.

 

[Subtle Knife]

Agreed, Raelysk - you are absolutely correct - that amends my post in one part - you need to use a sewing kit (not be proficient with it).

That said, have you ever tried to sew leather? I am trained as a veterinary surgeon (not a skill I use anymore except in emergencies), and suturing the skin of cattle, horses and other animals one is likely to get 'leather' from for armor purposes (ie not cats, fish, squirrels) is actually quite difficult and requires pretty specific tools - more akin to a leatherworking kit than a sewing kit. I've used 4-6 inch curved needles to get through LIVE cowhide (not cured), and you wield that needle more like a dagger than the delicate needles used on cloth. Proficiency is useful!

Thoughts on the rest? I think there is a real opportunity to clean this up and make it more user-friendly!

Subtle Knife

 

[Damos]

One point I noted:

The Artisan background implies you can be a Smith (p77 Artisan Memento's) but only allows the selection from the artisan tools. The artisan tools chart does not have smiths tools, they are listed as Miscellaneous Tools. P30 under Dwarf lists Smiths Tools as separate to artisan tools.

 

[Mike Myler]

The table on page 338 is for using artisan tools to abstractly ply your trade—for example, using alchemist's supplies to make glues, oils, and other stuff people would buy but aren't going to have an impact on adventuring, not for making a tanglefoot bag. The wording is getting some tweaks to hammer that in!

 

[Stalker0]

While we are talking crafting, I have a few concerns myself:

1) It seems that the rules effectively assume failure for many PCs. Assuming a +2 tool proficiency and a +2 crafting stat (what stat is used for crafting normally anyway?), that means I'll only hit the DC 50% of the time (and never on a take 10). And then 25% of the time I'm making a poor quality item. That seems pretty penalizing.

2) Poor quality items both seem insanely bad and crazily profitable. Getting the broken condition after every use....I mean that's not a poor item that's basically unusable. Who would ever use an item that breaks the second they use it?

And yet, you can sell them for half price and it only consumes 1/10th the material cost (as opposed to half for normal). You can also make them in half the time (often even faster than that, because you don't need to succeed on the DCs, so its always the minimal time). So it seems like you could sell these products and make a mint.

hehe maybe that's the point....good advertising and shoddy workmanship are the keys to riches!

 

[Mike Myler]

While we are talking crafting, I have a few concerns myself:

1) It seems that the rules effectively assume failure for many PCs. Assuming a +2 tool proficiency and a +2 crafting stat (what stat is used for crafting normally anyway?), that means I'll only hit the DC 50% of the time (and never on a take 10). And then 25% of the time I'm making a poor quality item. That seems pretty penalizing.

2) Poor quality items both seem insanely bad and crazily profitable. Getting the broken condition after every use....I mean that's not a poor item that's basically unusable. Who would ever use an item that breaks the second they use it?

And yet, you can sell them for half price and it only consumes 1/10th the material cost (as opposed to half for normal). You can also make them in half the time (often even faster than that, because you don't need to succeed on the DCs, so its always the minimal time). So it seems like you could sell these products and make a mint.

hehe maybe that's the point....good advertising and shoddy workmanship are the keys to riches!

1) Depends on the crafting and the item! Pitch the Narrator your best shot. I think the bigger problem for PCs below 5th level (with no expertise dice or other bonuses on their checks) is having the requisite downtime and gold to spend. Crafting is definitely geared more for tier 2 and up (although it's not |wiggles fingers| forbidden without a feat or whatever to get in the door).

2) Seems like you narrowed down who might use a poor quality item and how.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

While we are talking crafting, I have a few concerns myself:

1) It seems that the rules effectively assume failure for many PCs. Assuming a +2 tool proficiency and a +2 crafting stat (what stat is used for crafting normally anyway?), that means I'll only hit the DC 50% of the time (and never on a take 10). And then 25% of the time I'm making a poor quality item. That seems pretty penalizing.

2) Poor quality items both seem insanely bad and crazily profitable. Getting the broken condition after every use....I mean that's not a poor item that's basically unusable. Who would ever use an item that breaks the second they use it?

And yet, you can sell them for half price and it only consumes 1/10th the material cost (as opposed to half for normal). You can also make them in half the time (often even faster than that, because you don't need to succeed on the DCs, so its always the minimal time). So it seems like you could sell these products and make a mint.

hehe maybe that's the point....good advertising and shoddy workmanship are the keys to riches!

It's the Walmart way!

 

[noodohs]

2) Poor quality items both seem insanely bad and crazily profitable. Getting the broken condition after every use....I mean that's not a poor item that's basically unusable. Who would ever use an item that breaks the second they use it?

And yet, you can sell them for half price and it only consumes 1/10th the material cost (as opposed to half for normal). You can also make them in half the time (often even faster than that, because you don't need to succeed on the DCs, so its always the minimal time). So it seems like you could sell these products and make a mint.

Sure, but remember that this isn't a video game and it's not like you're just going to sit in town for weeks farming gold. Narrator is going to get a little bored and drop a fireball on you or something to get you to leave.

 

[Stalker0]

Sure, but remember that this isn't a video game and it's not like you're just going to sit in town for weeks farming gold. Narrator is going to get a little bored and drop a fireball on you or something to get you to leave.

Well actually, LU has a whole section on "downtime"....aka sitting in town for weeks doing stuff. Now whether the narrator will allow you to farm gold like this....probably not, but then that highlights the question of why make poor items like this in the first place.