Crossbows and why the rules shortchange them.

[TheGemini]

I'm glad to see the thread got some traffic. I like a lot of the ideas brought up. However, I do not believe the simple vs. martial conversation addresses my point.

The crossbow is easier to hit with. I get the fact that this has been accounted for with the simple weapon designation. I do not agree that this adequately addresses the issue...

Take a guy who knows how to use simple and martial weapons: He can choose the crossbow or longbow. Why on earth would he choose the crossbow? Why? Because it's easier to hit with!

I'll avoid going into a long argument. Just put it this way: If you have two weapons and one of them will hit its target more frequently than the other, how would you accommodate this in DnD?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I second the importance of angles on armour. Tests to penetrate steel plate are almost always done at a 90 degree angle, yet the likelihood of an arrow striking at such an angle is very unlikely.

On a related note, I remember seeing something on the History channel talking about German armour (tanks) during WWII and how the designers looked at the success of Russian sloped armour and discovered that steel plate sloped at 45 degrees effectively doubled the thickness of the armour.

The lesson? Don't make plate mail out of boxes!

 

[Darklone]

I'm glad to see the thread got some traffic. I like a lot of the ideas brought up. However, I do not believe the simple vs. martial conversation addresses my point.

The crossbow is easier to hit with. I get the fact that this has been accounted for with the simple weapon designation. I do not agree that this adequately addresses the issue...

Take a guy who knows how to use simple and martial weapons: He can choose the crossbow or longbow. Why on earth would he choose the crossbow? Why? Because it's easier to hit with!

I'll avoid going into a long argument. Just put it this way: If you have two weapons and one of them will hit its target more frequently than the other, how would you accommodate this in DnD?

Don't want to brag too much, but I've been using bows since more than 20 years now and I don't like crossbows. I'm pretty good with crossbows as well, but I shoot better (and lots faster) with my longbow. Soo, I'll hit more often with my longbow as well

 

[Thanee]

Where did you get that from, that a crossbow hits easier?

It is just easier to learn, but once you know how to use it properly, it should be fairly equal, personal preferances aside, which would be covered by Weapon Focus (i.e. Darklone has WF: longbow, obviously ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[TheGemini]

Where did you get that from, that a crossbow hits easier?

It is just easier to learn, but once you know how to use it properly, it should be fairly equal, personal preferances aside, which would be covered by Weapon Focus (i.e. Darklone has WF: longbow, obviously ).

Well, some experience. But that's subjective. I found several sites on the Internet that discuss the anger of bow hunters at crossbow hunters because they consider using a crossbow "cheating." As if it were too accurate and powerful to be classed with bows (regarding hunting permits, etc.)

I found another couple of sites that discussed the crossbow in historical terms claiming it was more accurate and more powerful (up close) than the bow. I am at work, now, so I don't have those links...but I can add them later. (incidentally, I didn't know about the power of the crossbow in the middle ages. That's another bonus to tack on, and another argument to make.)

Lastly, the discussion about "Once you learn the complexities of a bow it's just as accurate as a crossbow" argument is well established from what I've found. But it can be described another way: A 5th level bow user can shoot just as well as a 2nd level crossbow user. This is simultaneously saying the crossbow is shooting like a +3 weapon!

 

[Staffan]

Lastly, the discussion about "Once you learn the complexities of a bow it's just as accurate as a crossbow" argument is well established from what I've found. But it can be described another way: A 5th level bow user can shoot just as well as a 2nd level crossbow user. This is simultaneously saying the crossbow is shooting like a +3 weapon!

Or as "Once you spend the feat to get martial weapon proficiency (longbow)".

 

[Psimancer]

Crossbows also had an advantage in penetration. I have considered making them a ranged touch attack weapon to account for this.

Yeah, I've been playing around with this concept too, but we have limited this to 30 ft. (just like point blank shot).

Problems with crossbows:
can't shoot downwards (bolt falls off the end)
have to be really careful moving around with one loaded (bolt falls off the end/side, or a jolt sets it off)

Not true. This was only a problem on very early crossbows. Most have a spring clip that holds the bolt in place at the nock. On the second point, some crossbows had safeties. And yes, these are on historical crossbows, not just modern ones...

One of the main disadvantages with a crossbow was that it was inferior to a bow when shooting at a moving target.


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[TheGemini]

Or as "Once you spend the feat to get martial weapon proficiency (longbow)".

Well, I'm not arguing for the existing inadequate rules. I'd like to make up some new ones This is the House Rules forum, after all.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Aaron2]

One of the main disadvantages with a crossbow was that it was inferior to a bow when shooting at a moving target.

How do you figure?


Aaron

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

More of Crossbows

Shooting a moving target with a crossbow requires slewing a greater mass, which reduces accuracy when attempting to stop said mass on target.. but in a D20 setting, where things are abstracted do a degree...

Since I have not seen any comments on my last post, here is a link {again} to some house rules on treating Bows/Crossbows based on Effective Strength.. Tinkers' Discussion