D&D (2024) D&D 5.11 - the time of big change is over

[Ruin Explorer]

What do you find WoW-esque if you don't mind me asking?

Land's Aid is the most obvious example. Moonlight Step and Lunar Form too.

I'm not saying "Keep this filth out of my D&D!!!" or something, it's fine, I'm just saying it's a bit tonally different, and certainly reminiscent of WoW to me.

 

[Gorck]

Land's Aid is the most obvious example. Moonlight Step and Lunar Form too.

I'm not saying "Keep this filth out of my D&D!!!" or something, it's fine, I'm just saying it's a bit tonally different, and certainly reminiscent of WoW to me.

When I read Land’s Aid, my first thought was that it reminded me of Wither & Bloom. Not exactly, but a cousin thereof.

 

[Remathilis]

The fact that the templates themselves were mathematically awful almost certainly skewed the numbers too. Those templates were designed to be rejected.

I kinda feel that this is the double edge sword of their A/B testing.

Give a person a glass of cola and ask if they like it. You will probably get a generalized answer about their like or dislike of colas. Give that person two different colas and ask which they like will get you a different answer. The reason is that the person now has a frame of reference to describe the two colas against each other, vs a generalized notion of cola.

The playtest didn't give us what the B was to A/B testing. We're not getting do you like this or that? In some cases, we weren't even asked if we liked A in the first place (subclass progression). We weren't asked which fix for wild shape we preferred, we were given a half-baked template and when people rejected it for a multitude of reasoning, it was all put in the "doesn't spark joy" column. It's why even though I was hesitant about elements of the warlock being a half-caster, I have full throated support for it. Because anything less would give them ammo to pop it into the "no joy" bin.

 

[Parmandur]

I kinda feel that this is the double edge sword of their A/B testing.

Give a person a glass of cola and ask if they like it. You will probably get a generalized answer about their like or dislike of colas. Give that person two different colas and ask which they like will get you a different answer. The reason is that the person now has a frame of reference to describe the two colas against each other, vs a generalized notion of cola.

The playtest didn't give us what the B was to A/B testing. We're not getting do you like this or that? In some cases, we weren't even asked if we liked A in the first place (subclass progression). We weren't asked which fix for wild shape we preferred, we were given a half-baked template and when people rejected it for a multitude of reasoning, it was all put in the "doesn't spark joy" column. It's why even though I was hesitant about elements of the warlock being a half-caster, I have full throated support for it. Because anything less would give them ammo to pop it into the "no joy" bin.

A lot of those, the proposed change was the B test. The A rest is what they have a decades worth of data about hownpeople feel. Remember all those big surveys about the PHB they did a few years ago? That was the A testing for Warlock and Druid features.

 

[Incenjucar]

A "signature form" system for the druid might be a good middle ground, allowing them to use additional forms as rituals...

Anyways, I see good ideas fail in tech all the time when they get ignored. There's a business need/demand to focus resources on overwhelming successes that kills off good ideas that need iteration and time to develop.

 

[Cruentus]

A lot of those, the proposed change was the B test. The A rest is what they have a decades worth of data about hownpeople feel. Remember all those big surveys about the PHB they did a few years ago? That was the A testing for Warlock and Druid features.

That seems to be a terrible way to do surveys and compare data. What if you didn’t do the surveys of the PHB for whatever reason? Missed them? Too long? Whatever?

Then this new UA survey comes out, and you’re comparing apples to your lime survey from two years ago. The same people may or may not have answered. I’m not a statistician (and neither is anyone at WOTC, clearly), but that has to be a terrible design.

Sometimes when I’m feeling particularly cynical, I feel that either they give us terrible ‘options’ solely to have them shot down and say “See! Didn’t reach 70%!“, and then go back to what they wanted anyway. Or, they add whatever, survey it, and then just decide to put in whatever they want, citing the 70% ‘data’ they collected. Kind of like how I felt the 2014 PHB looked nothing like the latter playtests… but that’s just when I’m cynical.

 

[Gorck]

When I read Land’s Aid, my first thought was that it reminded me of Wither & Bloom. Not exactly, but a cousin thereof.

Upon revisiting Wither & Bloom, I realize that Land's Aid is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is how much healing is done (2d6 for LA, target's HD + Druid's spellcasting MOD for W&B) and the fact that one is an upcastable spell while the other is a subclass feature that increases at 10th & 14th level.

 

[Parmandur]

That seems to be a terrible way to do surveys and compare data. What if you didn’t do the surveys of the PHB for whatever reason? Missed them? Too long? Whatever?

Then this new UA survey comes out, and you’re comparing apples to your lime survey from two years ago. The same people may or may not have answered. I’m not a statistician (and neither is anyone at WOTC, clearly), but that has to be a terrible design.

They actually do get help through Hasbro from professional statisticians for designing these. As long as both samples are large enough, it's not like they need everyone to answer every survey.

 

[Stalker0]

Druid wildshape was not fixed

I recognize that this latest version is disappointing for especially those that wanted a more "template" form rather than back to the MM. However, I would argue a lot of fixes are in place.

• you can now summon a companion with a single spell slot rather than an expensive wild shape use.
• The moon druids seems much better balanced. Less HP but a significant improvement in AC. I don't think this moon druid will terrorize 2nd level like they do now (a moon druid is currently THE most OP character at 2nd level by a mile, like its embarrassingly good).
• Wildshape and spell slots can now be used more interchangeably. This is a wonderful flexibility option, allowing people that want to play the druid from the dnd movie by using all their spells for wildshape, or allow druids taht don't really want to be a shapeshift more magic options.
• The moon druid actually has lunar abilities now.
• Druid of the land got some needed buffs.
• The 20th level moon druid is no longer absolutely invincible.

So its not a total overhaul but there are some good changes here.

 

[Stalker0]

Upon revisiting Wither & Bloom, I realize that Land's Aid is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is how much healing is done (2d6 for LA, target's HD + Druid's spellcasting MOD for W&B) and the fact that one is an upcastable spell while the other is a subclass feature that increases at 10th & 14th level.

What do people think of the effect?

At 3rd level, 2d6 healing and 2d6 area damage.....maybe a bit on the low side but its reasonable.
I think the scaling is terrible, +1d6 at 10th level is why bother at that point.

If it was a bonus action I would be totally on board, but as your action that's hard to swallow.