D&D haters???

[Rackhir]

Oh good an excuse to provide a link to one of my favorite web sites.

http://www.theescapist.com/index.htm

Which has a number of good tips/suggestions for dealing with D&D "misunderstandings". What really made this site for me though was this.

Spell Casting 101 Otherwise known as "He attempts to cast spells, as some people claim you can easily do from the Harry Potter books and D&D." Very, very, very funny.

 

[masshysteria]

Interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses.

I'll admit, there are some minor aspects of D&D that I don't like. Fortunately most of those are explored greater outside the core rules, so I don't have to worry about. Also, D&D is what you make it. I can easily focus on aspects I like.

Now for some practical advice for the original poster:

Talk to her and her parents. Find out why they don't want her playing D&D. Don't rebut them or interrupt, just let them get everything off their chests. Perhaps their concerns don't stem from anything diabolic and we're all barking up the wrong tree.

If it is because of the occult/magic/etc. be sympathetic with their stance. But also let them know what you play D&D for and the themes you look for. If they have seen the Lord of the Rings movies, tell them you are looking for something like that: a band of heroes looking to fight evil and complete quests. Be candid and honest with them.

If they talk about how they don't like how clerics get their abilities from the worship of a "false god", don't try to dismiss it. Tell them your plans for clerics. Maybe it is more like an Eberron feel where clerics get their powers through faith in something greater. Maybe god's aren't a part of your campaign or you plan on approaching it like the old Greek heroes.

Notice how I keep bringing up D&D's inspirations, like Greek myth and Lord of the Rings. This helps put D&D in perspective.

Be willing to run something else or somewhere else. See if Star Wars is okay. The new Saga rules are pretty cool. Or find out if you can play at their house. This way they can check in and make sure you aren't doing anything crazy.

Any if all else fails, run D&D for those who can play and play some cool Euro-board games when your other friend is around.

 

[palleomortis]

she doesnt like the violence and all the demonic things that could be related to it. she doesnt like it when my imagination runs away, (which it tends to do alot,) and she thinks i shouldnt watch violence

This is a direct quote from the friend we're talking about (I hope you don't mind I posted it Anna.) The only thing is, I"m not sure they understand the goings on of the game so far as violence or demons. If demons are a problem, no biggie, I"ll take them out, and we simply won't referance them, talk about them, or acknoladge them. We havn't even done anything of the sort thus far in all my gaming years, just never interested us. And for the violence, Like I mentioned earlier, she is a Belegrim (Belegarth participant), so she reinacts medieval swordplay, practices medieval swordsmanship and so on nearly every weekend with us. (The majority of the particiapants of the Belegarth (LARP-ish game) are also my players for our D&D group) She also is a big fan of LOTR, and the movies as well. Do you think this is a misunderstanding of the game of D&D, or is it more?

Also, I was wondering if it would cuase any strife to simply eliminate magic from a D20 modern game, or weather it might make things cumbersum.

 

[Zzyzx]

How do you guys/gals usually deal with the generic, unsupported, boarderline destain of D&D?

After playing for a while, and without them asking, I sat down with my parents when I was 14 and walked them through the game, explaining that as DM I decided what happened in the story and what monsters appeared. I showed them the devils and demons in the AD&D MM and said that I would not be using them in the game, as I did not feel they were appropriate. (They weren't, for that campaign and for the people involved.) We played in the living room a couple times, and they saw (from the other room) what went on.

I would suggest that you talk to adults involved and try something similar. And don't get defensive -- it is easy for people to fear what we don't understand.

 

[WayneLigon]

Also, I was wondering if it would cuase any strife to simply eliminate magic from a D20 modern game, or weather it might make things cumbersum.

Not at all; you could eliminate it totally and never miss it. You can't even be a magic user until you're like sixth or seventh level anyway due to the entry requirements for the advanced class.

 

[Minicol]

Which is the same thing we're speaking of here - Pulling and her cronies did a lot to propagate the myths that persist to today. It's a good resource.

You can also point the parents to games like Green Ronin's Testament, explicitly set in the Biblical period and cracking good fun to boot.

I am not sure this is such a good idea. Ask people how they feel about statting up their own religion to get an idea of reactions you might get.

 

[johnsemlak]

If you look at his own body of work - Desert of Desolation, Ravenloft, Dragon Lance - it is remarkably unoccult and culturally neutral fantasy while still being I think quite obviously deeply influential examples of the craft of adventure creation and mature thoughtful works. I wonder which is really the more valuable intellectual property - Orcus or Dragon Lance? What value is having Belial in the game compared to say Strahd?

Orcus or Dragonlance--which is more valuable? I don't think that's nearly as strong a point as you want it to be. Dragonlance is undeniably stronger as a novel series, but as an RPG theme, i think that's murkier.

WotC is releasing an Orcus mini in its D&D Icons series--I haven't seen any DL minis in the Icon series, though several have been featured in other minis. Orcus (and certainly D&D Demons and Devils as a whole) feature larger in WotC products than DL in 3.x edition. DL just got one book from WotC (and some support in Dragon magazine).

Demon Lords and Archdevils have been in the D&D game from the beginning, and are clearly being embraced in future products. DL probably has a future still in the D&D game, but other than the occasional release of a DL mini, it's very unclear what RPG support DL is going to get.

That doesn't mean DL isn't a valuable property--it is, but it's clearly far easier to cash in on that property by releasing novels rather than RPG support.

I think Ravenloft is a similar case. Ravenloft got one book of support from WotC, as far as I remember, during 3rd edition, plus the Strahd mini. Clearly Ravenloft is a valuable property. But I could see Ravenloft being dropped completely from D&D products (at least temporarily) far more easily that dropping the famous Demon Lords or Archdevils.

Ultimately I think Orcus is at least as, if not more,integrated into D&D consciousness as Dragonlance, and definitely more than Ravenloft.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Like I mentioned earlier, she is a Belegrim (Belegarth participant), so she reinacts medieval swordplay, practices medieval swordsmanship and so on nearly every weekend with us. (The majority of the particiapants of the Belegarth (LARP-ish game) are also my players for our D&D group) She also is a big fan of LOTR, and the movies as well. Do you think this is a misunderstanding of the game of D&D, or is it more?

Also, I was wondering if it would cuase any strife to simply eliminate magic from a D20 modern game, or weather it might make things cumbersum.

i hesitate to suggest this, but thre is a free adventure, including descriptions of pc's plus a seperate article detailing the setting that I'm rather fond of as a starter. It's NOT DnD, its a HârnWorld/HârnMaster scenario (though the game mechanics parts are limited). HârnWorld is a rules neutral medieval low fantasy setting. The scenario is a (fairly) simple murder mystery for beginning characters. With no magic. It's called 'A Shower of Silver' it's set in Jedes and both articles are available for free download at www.lythia.com.

 

[Desdichado]

Orcus or Dragonlance--which is more valuable? I don't think that's nearly as strong a point as you want it to be. Dragonlance is undeniably stronger as a novel series, but as an RPG theme, i think that's murkier.

Well, I think we're losing track of the point of the conversation here a little bit. Orcus isn't a "real world" demon. He's a minor Roman god associated with Pluto. He was never a demon-lord. Pretty much everything about Orcus in D&D except his name was made up whole cloth by the authors.

If that doesn't work for you, how about nearly as iconic characters as, say, Graz'zt?

So, are we complaining here about the inclusion of real world religious elements in D&D, or simply the idea of demons and devils in the first place? If it's the latter, it's a little bit harder ot yank that out of D&D. It's been a theme that pretty thoroughly saturated D&D from the beginning, and for that matter, the source material that inspired D&D too. S&S fiction is rife with demonic type entities.

In any case, I think Celebrim makes and interesting (if completely unprovable) case that allowing the free publicity to run unchecked may have been a great idea in the short run for sales, but may have had long term implications that we're still struggling with today.