D&D needs improvement

Kashell said:
Slowly, and surely, you realize that the system is flawed, the characters, broken, the feats, unbalancing, the equipment arbitrarily priced.

Hey it's not perfect, but name a game that is. In chess you can turtle behind a castling gambit and win because it's impossible for your opponent to even approach your kind without loosing a mess of pieces. checkers is always open to the "multi-jump abuse". If a player rolls badly in the first go-round of Monopoly they could wind up so deeply in debit that morgaging all their property wouldn't pay back what they owe in rent. Games are never perfect, because they are like real life, survival of the most skilled and luckiest.

In short -- the rules are far too complex. You must all agree with me to some extent, because I consistantly see threads here for "simple combat" or "simple stats" etc.

And just as frequently, I see threads for "Alternative initiatives" and "Advanced statkeeping". frankly, I've gone through entire campaigns with Substats to all my six core abilities (DEX devided into Manual dexterity and physical agility, CON devided into toughness and health, etc.)

The flaw is simple: D&D is a class based system emulating a skill based system. Why create a class system with multiclassing, then introduce even more unbalancing prestige classes?

I disagree. The multiclass initative allows for any character to display a wide variety of talents and abilities, giving rise to various different interesting concepts and advancement. As for prestiege classes being imbalanced, they stand up remarkably well in campaigns i have run. Th

The common excuse is "oh, but it's the DM's decision to include that stuff". But why should the players be limited?

Ladies and Gentlemen, please open your books to page 0, and join me in the reading of rule zero... Rule zero, that which allows GM's to each craft their own individual world, Rule Zero, that which gives every campaign a dash of extra flavor. Rule Zero, the keeper of order at the game table. Let us think of rule zero fondly.

Remember, the point of any game is just to have fun... if you, as a player, want to be the penultimate badass in a role playing game, go play Feng Shui, and be a ninja assasin who can run along a stream of bullets in your first encounter... or Vampire the Masquerade, and be an insane vampire with access to all the knowledge in the universe.

XP system - Arbitrary and needlessly complex. The DM should assign XP as he or she feels, not as the rules dictate. (In more rules-lawyer environments, such as Living Grayhawk, XP values are already planned in game write-ups so why have such a complex system??).

And now we come to a crippling block... you see, I have had experience with the most Evil of All DM's (my EvilDM: a new comedy this season on G4), who assigned levels arbitrarily. he also assigned templates arbitrarily, and killed characters arbitrarily. Overall, the only good thing i could say about his campaign was that he allways showed up on time. Arbitrary assignment of experience points breeds player / DM hostility. I am currently leading a campaign with arbitrary experience points, and I have told the players exactly how the system works, in my mind. so thye can get a better grip on how much experience they are earning.

Hit Points - Soldiers and adventurers in real life stop fighting after they're wounded --not after they keel over and die. It makes no sense that a fighter should have 300 HP and only feel hurt after getting down to zero.

Oh jeeze... remind me to tell you about Miami Heat... I think that was the name. it was a game system set in florida against the backdrop of the War on Drugs. That was a game whose sole selling point was a hyper-realistic damage system for physical wounds.

Fights went like this:

Player 1: "I'll take a shot at him" (shooka shooka) "I rolled 24"

DM: "Sorry, your bullet sparks off the hood of the car he's ducked behind.. he's returning fire, blindly... (Shooka shooka) and he hits (shooka shooka) In the stomach (shooka shooka) but it missies any major organs (shooka shooka) and the bullet exits (shooka shooka) so you have... (checks chart, rolls again) 35 minutes before you bleed out and die."

Hit Dice - Just because I'm a Barbarian, and you're a wizard, I have three times the amount of life as you. What?

More like "Because I'm tough, I don't cave under pain as easily as you do." Hit points are arbitrary means of explaining a combination of physical fatigue from avoiding killing blows, and physical trauma from impacts and whatnot. Thye work better than some other systems, for example: in Feng Shui (I sure am on a FS kick today, aren't I?) Everyone has 35 HP, reguardless of level. But after a few experience points are dropped, they can be so tough that normal guns aren't enough to physically harm them. Since everyone has a built-in damage reduction, it is theoretically possible to get your toughness to the point that you could take a chainsaw to the neck and feel no physical trauma. In my party right now, we have a Karate cop who is immune to mook gunfire because he simply has too high a dodge value.

AC - I'm wearing a ton of armor, therefore you can't hit me. Rediculous notion.

More like "I'm wearing a ton of armor, even though that arrow was aimed at my heart, it just bounced off the steel plate."

Initiative - I'm more flexible / faster than you, therefore I'm always the first one to react in situations. (It would make more sense if initiative was based on wisdom -- skills like listen and spot.)

... no. just too stupid to argue. "I can analyze the situation better than you can, therefore, my muscles must be twitchy enough to get me moving first!" bad.

Strength Adds to HIT - I'm strong, therefore I aim well.
Dexterity Adds to HIT only if I take a special feat (or ranged) - I've got good hand eye coordination, but I don't have this ability, so I can't aim melee attacks.

I can thread three needles at once, and yet, I suck at playing baseball. Oddly, my bigger, more "all thumbs" hosemate can CREAM that little sphere off the planet. STR adds to-hit and too-damage. Dex adds to-hit at ranged because, generally speaking, hitting someone is about a big swing, not a little twist. Besides, you've pointed out where the game self-corrects in your own argument.

Platinum Pieces - Where in the heck did medevil soceities learn how to smelt platinum?!

Right about the same time they learned to throw fireballs and slow their falls by being near a wall.

Two Weapon Fighting - Historically speaking, two weapon fighting was another method of defense, just like using a shield. It was also employed as a method of disarming opponents and confusing enemies. But never was it used as blatantly attacking an opponent like one would do with two fists. Drittz did it, therefore I can too.

Yeah, right. I'd site the japanese two-sword style, which is better docciumented then the european equivalent, but i can't recall it's name. More than enough diesmbowel-them-honorably techniques there. As far as i'm concerned, if i have two sharp objects in my hands, I have two means of acting offensively.


Oh, this had better be good.

Bard - What the heck were they thinking?
"Support figure, capable of acting as secondary rogue, minor healing abilities, light offense, most useful for a wide variuety of buffs and social situations.

Druid - nature boys are suddenly religious too?
Wizard/Sorcerer - FAFS (Familiers are free stats)

Huh? Sorry, but, druids were a major religon of nature-worshipers in the pre-roman britania and in other locations across europe. I don't understand your problem with them. As for familiars, a whopping +2 on reflex saves! Oh NOES! Most familiars are forgotten, unless the wizard / sorcerer waited several levels to get a pseudodragon.

Skills - There are too many. Specifically, most of the skills in D&D rely on DC set checks, not opposed. Yet the ones used the most are the opposed checks (spot, listen, diplomacy, bluff, etc.) More skills means more skill checks the DM has to make (or skills the DM simply forgets about). More skill checks means slower play.

Listen and Spot - Why isn't this one "sense" skill?

Easy answers? I'm nearly blind from astygmatisim, My housemate has destroyed his hearing by listening to music that was too loud. I might never spot anything, and he certainly wouldn't hear it coming. Now, if you had asked why these were connected to wisdom, i could understand that.

Climb, Run, Swim, Jump, etc - Why isn't this one "athletics" skill?

Because, my house mate can climb ropes (or he could, when he was in a highschool gym class oh-so-many years ago) something I cannot do... but I can swim (thanks to spending many years in the water, lifeguard training, etc.), something he cannot do. If we ever get in a fight, i'm headed for the pool.

Craft - Why is this even a skill in D&D? Buying a masterwork weapon or armor isn't hard, and crafting one takes too long.

More easy answers! Because the game dosn't HAVE to move fast. Campaigns can be elegant, slow, and full of changes over time... why do you think there's adjustments for age?

Item creation feats - Why should I waste a feat and XP when I can just buy the item for the same price?

It's actually cheaper if you make it yourself, reguardless of what it is... generaly it costs half as much in finanaces, and one-twenty-fifth of that cost in EXP. For small items, this could be as little as a day and a fistfull of EXP. Certian things like scrolls and potions are indespendsible to dungeoneers, and should be crafted if at all possible.

Two Weapon Fighting - Too complex. Trying to fix a mechanic that is broken with rules = even more complex.

Standard two-weapon fighting penalty: -6 / -10, if it's a light weapon in your offhand: -6 / -8. If you just have the feat: -4 / -4, offhand is light and you have the feat? -2 / -2. You get one extra attack each round.

Wow, i just paraphrased the whole PARAGRAPH that describes the TWF system in a slightly shorter paragraph. reall complex there.

Full Plate - -6 Armor check penalty? And Full Plate is one size fits all? +1 max dex bonus? Last time I checked, all full plate must be custom made to fit a specific body type, and because the plates work so well together, people can do acrobatics while in full plate.

Magic armor is one-size fits all, unless the GM says otherwise. "It's magic! it defies the rules!" Regular armor is fit-to-person. And if you're really going to argue real life and logic in this game, please direct all questions to Mr. Dragon.

Shields - Wow, if I didn't know better, shields are worthless. Wonder why the Romans sent full armies into battle with full tower shields and did just fine with little or no armor?

cover bonus: using a tower shileld to provide cover can give up to total (100%) coverage, which makes it impossible for any melee or ranged attack against you to hit. That is why the romans used tower shields. Also, the romans tended to use greek "phalanx" advancements under "the turtle" where pikes made it nearly impossible to approach the readied tower shields. They also used the shields as total cover while hurling their special iron-hafted javelines, which bent after being thrown, making it so enemies could not throw them back. Furthermore, Roman armor usually consisted of at least a breastplate and some padding. Your real world example just backfired, as the real world use mirrored the existing mechanics.

Cover - I have a giant tower shield, which only grants me +4 to AC, but now I'm behind a wall. You can't attack me because I'm behind this wall. Guess archers are too dumb to arc their arrows.
See previous entry on tower shields. they can provide total cover, but if you aren't carrying them properly, you might as well be standing out on top of the wall.

Multiple attackers - two hundred bears attempt to jump on an adventurer. None of them are able to hit him, because his AC is obviously, too high.
Grappling - Oh good lord almighty.

Actually, those two are related. If the bear attempts to grapple, he must first hit the adventurer's Touch AC (which is allways significantly lower than his Armored AC) Furthermore, each additional person who joins in to a grapple does so at a bonus for aiding.

Now, if a bear were just to take a swipe at Hero In Platemail: his claws might skitter off the steel skin of the armor, but if he were to grab on, then the bear only has to reach out and touch in a proper manner. If all two-hundred were to just attempt tp claw and bite, well, about 5% of them would crit, which means an auto-hit for damage, reguardless of how high mr. unstoppable's AC is...

Furthermore, there are rules for "angry mobs" in the DMG II, which means that even two-dozen angry first level commoners can be a true threat to Mr. 20th level.

Man, your trolling sucks. hard. if you're going to kvetch about the rules, learn them first!
 
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Item creation feats - Why should I waste a feat and XP when I can just buy the item for the same price?
It's actually cheaper if you make it yourself, reguardless of what it is... generaly it costs half as much in finanaces, and one-twenty-fifth of that cost in EXP. For small items, this could be as little as a day and a fistfull of EXP. Certian things like scrolls and potions are indespendsible to dungeoneers, and should be crafted if at all possible.

Orrrrrrrrrr...

Making unique items that don't currently exist in the game.

Orrrrrrrrrr...

Making items that exist in the game but don't currently exist in the campaign
 

trancejeremy said:
FWIW, on the Cardinals-Padres baseball game, one of the announcers made a comment about how Barry Bonds was "wrapped up like a Roman soldier", in reference to all the body armor/protection he wears while batting.


Well, if a sports announcer said it, it must be true.
 

I haven't read the whole thread, but, uh...

That first post was just stupid. D:

Like the stuff about armor class = missing, about how 'the bard sucks so get rid of anything related to them', let's just throw out skills, forget about character customization and roleplay.

This guy is looking for a video game more than an RPG, it sounds like. =\
 

Raven Crowking said:
No, that's WotC saying "Throw 'em on anyway". It has nothing to do with a "player choice" when you're comparing something historical (roman armour) with something in game (banded mail). Knowing which version (attempted historical accuracy vs. who cares) you are dealing with helps quite a bit in this sort of situation. Because, interestingly enough, the "attempted historical accuracy" version dealt with Roman armour, and it is fairly easy to determine from that standpoint whether or not Storm Raven is correct.

Uhm, but I didn't compare the banded and roman armor, you guys were busy doing that. I was talking entirely ingame and just made an allusion to historical armor as it regarded the DM excercising Rule 0. Thanks for reading carefully tho.

Raven Crowking said:
Not that his focus on some small point of minutia proves or disproves the statement that the OP made about the relative value of the Roman shield vs. its D&D value.

*snark removed* You were the one complaining about banded mail with spikes.

Raven Crowking said:
BTW, "It's a PLAYER CHOICE!!! OH NOES!!!" is a pretty worthless comment. Letting the players buy jets with tactical nukes is a PLAYER CHOICE too. OH NOES!!! Just because something is a "player choice" does not mean it is good or that it should be part of the core. Whether or not making spiked armour available is a smart choice or a stupid choice depends only upon the relative merits of spiked armour, not on who is making the choice.

Your entire arguement about spikes on banded mail was worthless, hence all it got was a worthless comment. If we had 20' tall giants grabbing up our warriors and crushing them in our own world, you damn well bet the smiths might have said "Hey Bob, let me see your armor. I made some big spikes that I'm going to add to your armor. Make those big guys think TWICE about picking you up eh?" The spikes available for all armor is a product of their environment and, thus, are internally consistent, which is all I really care about.

IMO, you dont' buy D&D b/c you want the most historically accurate game ever. You can use it as a base and add and subtract to attemppt to make it such, but that isn't the set and stated goal of the company producing the game. I haven't seen any D&D games w/jets and tactical nukes, but if they were in a setting and the player had the money, why couldn't they manage to scrouge one up eventually? Spikes fit the setting much better than your ridiculous arguement about jets.
 
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Raven Crowking said:
D&D it the big game. It's only natural that people want it to do what they were expecting it to do (or hoping it would) when they shelled out the bucks for it.

I would suggest that anyone who bought D&D expecting a vastly historically accurate system was on something.

Raven Crowking said:
It is entirely possible to read a set of rules, but not see the flaws in those rules until you begin to play them. That is one of the reasons that professional designers playtest.

Does that mean that Kevin Simbeida isn't a professional designer? ;) Palladium does no playtesting unless the freelancer in question decides to do some on his own before Kevin gets it.

Elephant said:
As for kitbashing...some of that is fun/satisfying in its own right. Besides, a D&D game with a few houserules (but not TOO MANY houserules) is easier to find players for than, say, HARP or True20.

You're right kitbashing is fun. The Bladesinger was ridiculously powerful, there were different systems for unarmed combat in both the Complete Warrior and Complete Priest and later in Complete Gladiators for Dark Sun. The Ranger kits all sucked, the Bard kits were ridiculously cool.....

Something like that? ;)

On the too many houserules, I think we can all think of one or 2 individuals that fit that description.
 



Numion said:
So, is it your opinion that roman soldiers were lightly armored? I know it was the OP's opinion, but how about you?

Compared to, say, a fully armoured knight? Sure. Compared to a soldier in a chain hauberk? Possibly. After all, there are very good reasons that later peoples didn't continue to wear Roman-style armour even though forging chain links requires more actual labour. On Friday last I took a trip to the Royal Ontario Museum here in Toronto, and I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt tha the Romans were not the last word in armour.

As far as 2E armour being more realistic than 3E; why would it not be? The designers of 2E tried very hard to portray weapons and armour realistically. They may not have succeeded, but they did make an effort. They went to great lengths to describe what each type of armour was like, in the Arrms & Equipment Guide, provided pictures of various types of weapons, and avoided including fantastic weapons that would be injurious or lethal to their user. :) In contrast, 3.X uses a more "anything goes" approach, even if that "anything" demonstrably makes no sense. Admittedly, the renditions of armour don't suffer the same problems that the gnomish pick do, but neither are they overly concerned with painstaking historical detail. Which is why they dropped several armour types, piecemeal armour, and involved descriptions of how that armour was put together. In fact, I have heard that described as a strength of the 3E system.

RC
 

Raven Crowking said:
Compared to, say, a fully armoured knight? Sure. Compared to a soldier in a chain hauberk? Possibly. After all, there are very good reasons that later peoples didn't continue to wear Roman-style armour even though forging chain links requires more actual labour.

Nope they weren't, but they didn't wear "little or no" armor, like OP said either. Anyway, the argument didn't make sense in the first place. He was implying that in real life shields were so good that didn't need armor on top of that (even romans didn't think like that). That's just false - in reality just about anyone who could afford armor, had it.

As far as 2E armour being more realistic than 3E; why would it not be? The designers of 2E tried very hard to portray weapons and armour realistically. They may not have succeeded, but they did make an effort.

Of course it's hard to say what kind of armor would be used in a world that has very different dangers compared to ours. MM has its quotient of creatures that are based on grappling. For that reason, I might want to spike my armor :)

It's not completely logical to expect the residents of a D&D world to prepare themselves for conflicts from our world - rather, they should be prepared for D&D conflicts. You know, all the stuff MM says wants to eat you.
 

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