Raven Crowking said:
Sorry, but I find this to be a lame response. Why not simply try to fix the problems you see to make your game the game you want?
This is along the lines of:
Poster 1: "Piña Colada sucks! It's got alcohol in it, and as a teetotaller, I abhor that. Plus, I really hate coconut. Yuck! Oh, and I don't like drinks with ice. I prefer them to be room temperature. So why don't they get rid of the ice, the rum, and the coconut stuff? It would make for a better PC."
Poster 2: "Hey, maybe PC isn't for you? Just drink Pineapple Juice"
Poster 3: "How lame. Why couldn't he make his PC the way he wants?"
Kashell said:
Slowly, and surely, you realize that the system is flawed
Nah. I knew it from the start. Good luck finding anything human-made that isn't flawed. Except the stuff I create, which rules.
In short -- the rules are far too complex.
Detailed, yes. There's a lot of stuff out there, and that's great. You know, I don't like to drink myself senseless every week, and I failed to start smoking in my youth, so I'm always in desperate need of ways to blow my money on, lest it accumulates in my house and chokes the cats.
You must all agree with me
Now. I disagree with that, and even If I didn't, I would, just out of spite!
because I consistantly see threads here for "simple combat" or "simple stats" etc.
That's because "leave combat/stats just as they are" isn't that much of a hot topic, really.
The common excuse is "oh, but it's the DM's decision to include that stuff". But why should the players be limited?
Because my Forgotten Realms campaign doesn't have Gua'ould weaponry and therefore doesn't need an "Alien Weapons Proficiency" feat, or a "Chevron Master Decrypter" Advanced Class, while Antimon's StarGate d20 Campaign doesn't have elves and therefore shouldn't feature Bladesingers or Arcane Archers.
d20 is one of the systems that is designed to work in a lot of different campaigns. Not everything is for everyone.
Plus, unbalanced PrC's are no indicator that the game is unbalanced. I can create unbalanced stuff in every single roleplaying game out there.
XP system - Arbitrary and needlessly complex. The DM should assign XP as he or she feels, not as the rules dictate. (In more rules-lawyer environments, such as Living Grayhawk, XP values are already planned in game write-ups so why have such a complex system??).
Would a system where the DM does just what he wants not be more arbitrary? I for one like to have guidelines. Makes it all go smooth. And I don't see anything too complex with that. I think a DM should be able to perform single tasks like cross-referencing tables.
Hit Points - Soldiers and adventurers in real life stop fighting after they're wounded --not after they keel over and die. It makes no sense that a fighter should have 300 HP and only feel hurt after getting down to zero.
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Soldiers and adventurers in real life use guns to hurt others - not magic and mental powers.
We all know that HP aren't that realistic, but they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to be quick and easy, and they're performing splendidly.
Hit Dice - Just because I'm a Barbarian, and you're a wizard, I have three times the amount of life as you. What?
While you trained dodging blows, rolling with blows, and just sucking up pain, I've been sitting in my library, reading these real nice books about demonology. They contain vital information about demons, their appearance, their powers, and... OKAY, I ADMIT. I'VE BEEN STARING AT THE COLOURED RENDITIONS OF SUCCUBI AND MARILITHS AGAIN.
HP aren't just a way to take damage, but to avoid damage. As we already established: it's an abstract system. Losing hit points doesn't mean losing a chunk of meat and some ounces of blood, but also rolling with a blow, turning a fatal strike into a glancing one, and getting a bit more winded in the process.
AC - I'm wearing a ton of armor, therefore you can't hit me. Rediculous notion.
It's not about hitting, it's about hurting. Sure, my strike won't miss, but unless I land a good blow, all I hit is the armour, not your soft flesh.
Initiative - I'm more flexible / faster than you, therefore I'm always the first one to react in situations. (It would make more sense if initiative was based on wisdom -- skills like listen and spot.)
Actually, a combination of wisdom (for wits) and dexterity (for reflexes) would be best. WoD uses that. But Dex alone's good, too, let's keep it simple. (After all, the game should not be too complex, as you said).
Strength Adds to HIT - I'm strong, therefore I aim well.
Ever tried to fight with a weapon that's almost to heavy for you to lift? You might get in strikes at the enemy's general direction, but by the time the weapon gets near the original spot the guy was standing on, he'll have run three circles around you, hamstrung you, and be slapping you on the face with a cheesegrater.
Dexterity Adds to HIT only if I take a special feat (or ranged) - I've got good hand eye coordination, but I don't have this ability, so I can't aim melee attacks.
I agree that Finesse should not be a feat, but rather something everyone can do. But that's hardly a reason to ditch the whole game.
Platinum Pieces - Where in the heck did medevil soceities learn how to smelt platinum?!
From the same guy who told them to make big large lumps of stone walk around or shoot lightning out of their hands, or bring back the dead after they've been put through the meatgrinder and fed to dogs.
Two Weapon Fighting - Historically speaking, two weapon fighting was another method of defense, just like using a shield. It was also employed as a method of disarming opponents and confusing enemies. But never was it used as blatantly attacking an opponent like one would do with two fists. Drittz did it, therefore I can too.
Historically speaking, dark elves never really walked around here.
Bard - What the heck were they thinking?
Music has a certain kind of magic even in our world - let's give it real magic in this fantasy world, since it really does have magic. Let's have a class that uses music that way. Let's make those jacks-of-all-trades, since as a performer, you have to put up a good show and make ends meet if you can't fill the concert halls.
Druid - nature boys are suddenly religious too?
Religion can mean more than just torturing others because their faith differs from yours. Many people don't realize that, but it's true nonetheless. Worshipping nature, or aspects of nature, has been done, and is still done, in our own world.
Wizard/Sorcerer - FAFS (Familiers are free stats)
That's all you came up with? Come one, it has all been done before.
Let me help:
"This memorizing magic part is rubbish. By the time you memorized that spell, you forgot what you were going to do with it. What good is a spell that summons beautiful virgins into your bedchamber if you need 50 years to prepare it, and once you cast it, don't even know what you're supposed to do with those."
Skills - There are too many. Specifically, most of the skills in D&D rely on DC set checks, not opposed.
"Damn! I tried to find us some berries here, but the local nature won the opposed survival check again. We'll starve. I told you we shouldn't have gone into the Murkwood - it's an epic-level forest!"
More skills means more skill checks the DM has to make
Come again? Wouldn't a smaller list just mean that the surviving skills would be used more often? You still have to make a check each time the players might succeed or fail at something.
Listen and Spot - Why isn't this one "sense" skill?
Climb, Run, Swim, Jump, etc - Why isn't this one "athletics" skill?
Move Silently, Hide - Why aren't these a "stealth" skill?
Tumble, balance, etc - Why aren't these an "acrobatics" skill?
This isn't WoD.
I might agree that a small handfull of the skills we have should be incorporated into other skills, but listen, spot, hide and move silently can stay where they are. You can have good hearing but bad eyesight, after all.
Craft - Why is this even a skill in D&D? Buying a masterwork weapon or armor isn't hard, and crafting one takes too long.
So, if there was no craft skill, who'd create all these masterwork items for you to easily buy? Where do the shops get their merchandise? I know! They buy it!
Knowledge (of) - Why aren't these skills associated with other classes or skills? I mean, if you're a wizard, you MUST know SOMETHING about arcane magic.
You're not a wizard, so you CAN'T know ANYTHING about arcane magic? Is that it? I don't think so.
Besides, you can limit yourself to learning spells, leaving the rest out of the curriculum. That means you know how to say the words to make a fireball, but you won't have any idea that the gentlemen made of iron there won't be harmed by it...
Perform - We know the bard is useless anyway, so why is this even in D&D?
Because bards aren't useless, many people want to play characters that are great performers, and fantasy literature is chock-full of heroes with an artistic bent.
Spellcraft - Why isn't this associated with a class?
You mean, like, being a class skill for that class?
Or something only that one class can do? What about the rest? Can't they learn about spells? Even though they cast spells (7 of the 11 core classes have at least some magic)
Item creation feats - Why should I waste a feat and XP when I can just buy the item for the same price?
Read again: You pay half the market price.
Plus, who creates those items? Right: Those with the feats.
And what if you can't buy the item? You can't just go to Dorf (population: 20) and buy a holy avenger and order the Armour of the Celestial Batallion which you'll pick up right after this dungeon crawl.
Any +2 to 2 skills feat - Worthless. Most of these skills aren't used much anyway.
Yeah. Never heard anyone using spot or listen. Or hide and move silently. Or diplomacy and sense motive. I say because I can't think right now of a reason why every single character I'll ever play will take these feats, they shouldn't exist, because noone will ever use them.
Shields - Wow, if I didn't know better, shields are worthless. Wonder why the Romans sent full armies into battle with full tower shields and did just fine with little or no armor?
Seems you don't know better.
Attacks of Opportunity - My enemy is suddenly able to attack (again) because I did something. (???)
(a lot of rubbish that makes it clear that the OP wants 100% accuracy and realism instead of something that can be played fast
Really, D&D isn't for you. May I suggest finding one of these guys who still makes armour and weapons, get him to make a custom-fitted full plate for you, get two swords - one only for defense, disarming, and confusing, never to attack, and then look for other people who do the same, and then just hack at each other? I can tell you, there will be no useless skills, no classes that suck, no complex rules. And I can guarantee you that you won't continue fighting as if nothing happened after the first couple of hit points lost due to being hit (which your armour won't do anything about). I suggest carwheeling around the enemy pretty early, before he guts you.
