Daggerheart General Thread [+]

[jmartkdr2]

Question for those of you familiar with print production business --

After the near-immediate sellout of the first print run, Amazon showed the Daggerheart core listing as out of stock.

Late last week, I checked the Amazon listing again and it showed up in stock with a guaranteed delivery date of ~July 2nd or 3rd.

Looking at the Amazon listing today, it's still showing direct fulfillment from Amazon, with delivery date of July 6-9, so it appears at least on the surface that a second, possibly third shipment of stock has at least made its way to Amazon. (It also still shows as the #140 most popular book title across all of Amazon, which is still pretty impressive.)

I can't recall who specifically mentioned it, but I recall seeing (I believe on this site) from a well-known RPG publisher (maybe someone from Green Ronin or Steve Jackson Games?) that an RPG title that sells 5,000 copies is a very strong product.

So my question is, what would be a common initial print run for a book like the Daggerheart core --- of the same type, size, weight, paper texture, color print type, etc.?

Would the first printing have been 10,000 copies? 15k? 25k?

And what would be a typical count and lead-in time for a second printing? Once the printer gets word a second run is needed, how long does it take to print and bind?

Mostly curious because I've yet to see a single copy of Daggerheart in any one of 5 FLGS's I frequent off and on. My current market (Salt Lake City) is a hugely popular "nerd zone" (Salt Lake has its own Fan-X con every year), so I can't believe that the local game stores are simply choosing not to carry it. So curious if it's still a function of the downline demand still eating into the print backlog, etc.

Or possibly that it's still considered an "indie press" product, so isn't included in the major distributor channels?

I mean, obviously I could ask one of the folks at one of the stores to order it in, but I frankly hate having to deal with what passes for "customer service" these days. I hate having to play the song and dance with the customer service folks. Half the time they don't even know what you're talking about, or they can only get stuff through their preferred distributor. Then even if their distributor carries it, then having to wait for the distributor to stock in, then order it, then half the time they don't even contact you when your order arrives, etc.

In all seriousness it's much less painful to order it off Amazon than order it direct to a store, obviously to the detriment of the FLGS's.

Amazon seems to hedge their bets on delivery times - mine was supposed to come sometime in early July, but it came last Saturday (a few days after I ordered it.)

Under-promise and over-deliver seems to be their motto.

 

[aramis erak]

Losing 1 stress is called out in the rulebook as a consequence of succeeding with Fear, and several enemies do Stress damage.

as a POTENTIAL consequence, not an automatic one.

The mechanics might support it, but the player principles don't. It isn't a GM (NOT DM) issue, it is a player issue because DH specifically requires players to share the spotlight. Char-op is a problem in that regard.

Not really. CharOp and Spotlight Hogging are two different problems, and are not axiomatically always comorbid.
CharOp wants to win as much as possible - but experiences are the only really potent weak spot - and subject to GM approval following group discussion.
Spotlight Hogging is a constant thorn, but there's a tool for it: the 3 actions per round option.

 

[Reynard]

Spotlight Hogging is a constant thorn, but there's a tool for it: the 3 actions per round option.

There is a better tool.

 

[dbm]

There is a better tool.

 

[aramis erak]

Question for those of you familiar with print production business --

I'm a couple decades out, but the major issues are still the same.

I was doing publications on a local level, 500-1000 copy level stuff, for a non-profit. Every other month periodical, annual client resources guide (5k copies), annual state lobbying materials (150 copies)... for a 3 year period where I was doing it full time, and a 2 year period part time.

After the near-immediate sellout of the first print run, Amazon showed the Daggerheart core listing as out of stock.

Late last week, I checked the Amazon listing again and it showed up in stock with a guaranteed delivery date of ~July 2nd or 3rd.

Looking at the Amazon listing today, it's still showing direct fulfillment from Amazon, with delivery date of July 6-9, so it appears at least on the surface that a second, possibly third shipment of stock has at least made its way to Amazon. (It also still shows as the #140 most popular book title across all of Amazon, which is still pretty impressive.)

It's quite possible Amazon bought out some distributor's stock.

I can't recall who specifically mentioned it, but I recall seeing (I believe on this site) from a well-known RPG publisher (maybe someone from Green Ronin or Steve Jackson Games?) that an RPG title that sells 5,000 copies is a very strong product.

That's SJG; SJG also mostly prints boardgames and cardgames; RPGs are their side business, and they're not top-10 with either (GURPS and TFT), and TFT cannibalized some of GURPS fanbase. Kromm has been very clear that RPGs are a side hustle because SJ loves his own games... and while they need to show a profit, they're not optimizing for profits.

Note that other companies have larger or smaller shares. EG:
the Arkland & Book of Magic for Dragonbane have >4500 copies each of the two books sold before printing... and they're going to open for late pledges in a couple weeks, so it's quite likely to cross 5000 ... and they're probably at a point where an 8k to 10k run for a supplement makes sense.
Kickstarter is where they find out how big a run they need.

So my question is, what would be a common initial print run for a book like the Daggerheart core --- of the same type, size, weight, paper texture, color print type, etc.?

Would the first printing have been 10,000 copies? 15k? 25k?

And what would be a typical count and lead-in time for a second printing? Once the printer gets word a second run is needed, how long does it take to print and bind?

That's incredibly dependent upon if there are gaps in the print-house's schedule, and upon the print house retaining the plates. If both are true, it's just send them the money to print it. If the plates weren't retained, may as well update, and that can add hours to weeks. And the opening might be days to months away.
If there's not an opening anytime soon, it can take from a few days to a couple months with a different print house. And differences in pricing scheme.
For a big enough order, several print shops will call in part timers for extra shifts, and/or run overtime for the main crew, to make slots... in 1999, the printer we used in Anchorage had that magic number at (IIRC) 80k pages in the run... and a 10% increase in cost for priority run at that size. We got bumped a day one month; a major run for an oil company preempted us. We were a mere 250 copies at 40 pages, so 4000 pages, 1/20 of the priority size. For us to have had priority, we'd have doubled our cost... the other shops were more expensive.

Mostly curious because I've yet to see a single copy of Daggerheart in any one of 5 FLGS's I frequent off and on. My current market (Salt Lake City) is a hugely popular "nerd zone" (Salt Lake has its own Fan-X con every year), so I can't believe that the local game stores are simply choosing not to carry it. So curious if it's still a function of the downline demand still eating into the print backlog, etc.

It's quite likely that Amazon saw the sales and prioritized nabbing distributor copies.

Or possibly that it's still considered an "indie press" product, so isn't included in the major distributor channels?

I can't find the KS page for the original KS on Daggerheart, but it will tell you the minimum size of the original run. Total it up, round up to next 1000.

I mean, obviously I could ask one of the folks at one of the stores to order it in, but I frankly hate having to deal with what passes for "customer service" these days. I hate having to play the song and dance with the customer service folks. Half the time they don't even know what you're talking about, or they can only get stuff through their preferred distributor. Then even if their distributor carries it, then having to wait for the distributor to stock in, then order it, then half the time they don't even contact you when your order arrives, etc.

In all seriousness it's much less painful to order it off Amazon than order it direct to a store, obviously to the detriment of the FLGS's.

My FLGS had only two people looking hard enough to ask the manager... she got caught off-guard, and the distributor didin't have any.

Books a Million doesn't actually have any... hasn't for over a week. They notified me monday that they're getting some in and I'm on the next batch in. So, essentially they didn't order a copy for me (or anyone else) for a week after running out. I won't use them again. they won't even confirm if their distributor is on backorder or has shipped... just that they've ordered my copy from their distributor.

 

[Seramus]

There is a better tool.

I think Vetting is probably the best tool, or a probationary period - which is just Vetting more thoroughly. Just having the opportunity to test someone out and see if they would be a good fit before seriously integrating them into a group.

 

[aramis erak]

There is a better tool.

Kicking them to the curb isn't a viable tool for any but the worst... because I like to have a group.

 

[Nikosandros]

I can't find the KS page for the original KS on Daggerheart, but it will tell you the minimum size of the original run. Total it up, round up to next 1000.

There was no KS, just a pre-order.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Sorry but it's just not accurate to claim PCs have "very little control" over Stress. They don't have total control but it's basically a resource they are generally in charge of in a way that's not true of HP. And my point isn't that the players will succeed, it's that they'll naturally try if you keep forcing attrition-based days on them, because it's the logical metagame response. It won't actually stop them getting attrited, to be clear - it'll just mean that they play more boringly and conservatively as a result!

Fortunately, you don’t need to take my word for it. This is what the book says:
p. 150
Success with Fear
Work together to describe the success, then introduce a complication or cost as a GM move - but don’t negate their success with this consequence. Maybe an adversary attacks them in response or they mark a Stress from the toll it took to succeed.

Failure with Hope
Describe how the PC fails to get what they want and how the situation goes wrong as a result by introducing a a minor complication or consequence as a GM move. Maybe they spot a new danger they must contend with, face an attack or mark a Stress from the enemy they are engaged with.

A couple of pages later in the GM moves section
Make a PC mark a Stress as a consequence for their actions
This is the perfect move when a PC succeeds with Fear and you’re not sure what other consequences apply.

In addition, the Deeproot Defender, the Giant Scorpion and the Jagged Knife Lieutenant, to name only 3 Tier 1 adversaries, have attacks that force players to mark Stress.

So yes, players can choose not to use abilities that cost Stress and could very easily still need to mark Stress through failed rolls or enemy attacks.

Also, maybe beside the point but any DM who routinely (i.e. multiple times per session) charged Stress for succeeding with Fear would be massively nerfing the PCs (crippling them, it'd be fair to say), and frankly it's unreasonable behaviour and a outright bad suggestion (pretty much all RPGs have some of this, I note, especially in first editions). I can't find where in the rules they outright suggest that, but they should not, frankly.

It comes off pretty arrogant to jump to the conclusion that you alone know how to play a brand-new game to the point that anything to the contrary in the core rulebook itself is a « bad suggestion ».

It's not okay, because it's actively breaking the principle that success is success, and you can't take away that success by the "with Fear" complications - if they're so severe that they do, they're too severe - and in most cases charging a Stress for your already-achieved success is absolutely that (the exceptions would generally be very extreme circumstances).

The DM has several levers to pull to ensure an enjoyable game. If you don’t like attrition-based gameplay, that’s fine, but the fact is DH supports it. Personally, I find that because the GM had more tools to fine tune combat on the fly, including choosing to spend Fear or not, and choosing to make softer and harder moves, DH supports attrition-based gameplay better than 5e.

Certainly the threshold for charging Stress should be very similar to the threshold for charging HP (a little lower because you get 1 Stress back on a critical success, but not much). Are you thinking of the "Stress from complications" section? Because it doesn't say "Oh you can casually demand Stress for simply rolling with Fear" that, and would be in danger of breaking its own principles if it did. Plus this examples it gives are not routine, every-session examples, they're extreme ones, like "committing an act of incredible bravery" (to me that means something like voluntarily leaping through a sheet of flame or the like). I doubt there's a single example of any DM actually just randomly charging Stress on a success with Fear in any actual-play of DH, too, because it's so obviously unreasonable in play. It's only going to be in some fairly insane circumstances, and likely to avoid a worse complication.

There are enemies who do Stress damage, but they're not some constant, and most of them will only actually get to do Stress damage at most once or twice in a combat before they're taken out (in many cases they won't get to at all).

Your claim was that if a DM tried to play DH with multiple encounters to wear down the PCs, the PCs would get around it by only expending two of Armor/HP/Stress so the could get them back on short rests.

First, this ignores that even at first level, several classes have single session or single long rest powers that would also get used up. My later point was that pretty easily have the levers to hit all three resources, so a short rests wouldn’t be able to recover all resources.

14 Fear, even assuming zero monsters generating Fear means about, what, 32 rolls? You genuinely think it's plausible that the PCs will resolve six (6) encounters in 32 rolls? I.e. about 1.3 rolls per PC per encounter?

Just because you couldn’t think of a way to do it doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

Here’s an example:
4 PCs.
They are at the entrance of a Wizard tower, with a stone statue on the side. The Bard attempts a Knowledge check to attune to the magic of the door to open it. Failure with Fear.
The GM decides the statue animâtes as a Tier 1 Solo construct.
The construction immediately uses its trample and overcharge ability, then attacks 1 for a big first round.
The first two PCs attack, both succeed with hope and each does Major damage. That’s 6 hp due to the Contruct’s passive feature.
The GM spends a Fear to interrupt than a second Fear to attack again.
Third PC attacks. Failure with Fear. GM attacks again.
Fourth PC attacks. Success with Fear. 2 damage.
GM attacks again. Spends another Fear to attack a 2nd time.
Any PC attacks. Failure with Hope.
Another PC attacks. Success with Fear. Construct explodes (took 9 damage).
1.5 PC rolls in that Encounter. 4 Fear generated. 3 Fear spent.

Not too hard to come up with 5 encounters (combat or not) that expend resources but are resolved quickly.

On top of all this, DH encourages the DM to allow the PCs to resolve encounters without resorting to violence. This means you could end up generating a lot less Fear, because it'll probably be far fewer rolls (or maybe none at all), but it goes directly against attritional play, for the same reasons - it's unlikely to use much in the way of resources.

That’s a good thing. Combats aren’t the only encounters that drain resources. You can run an attrition based game just by throwing potentially encounters at the players and having them spend resources to avoid them.

 

[OB1]

I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe I wasn't clear: I do not think Daggerheart's mechanics will support horror gaming. At all. Even with some setting rules.

Agreed. Think Age of Umbra shows the problem with this system and horror/survival themes. It’s too much on the players side to create the right mood.