5E Damage on a missed attack roll

to me 5 abandoned the DM to his own devices about what might be accomplished via skill and failed to create shared expectations for the players and DM both.
Well, "failed" implies trying to create such expectations in players. 5e set out to Empower DMs and that meant (among many other things) leaving players wondering what they could do with a check, skill, etc, so they'd have to ask the DM, it succeeded.
Aside from that, yeah.

Even functions like how far you can jump is so unheroic scaled your average football player can do as well as a 20 strength character does unless you provide system intervention. (then who knows)
An issue in every edition, really.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, "failed" implies trying to create such expectations in players.
To me its part of the game systems fundamental job to help create shared expectations between those who play it so yeh I am sticking with failed.

Failed to provide tools beyond wing it!!!!
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
An issue in every edition, really.
5e numbers kind of close if you are making sure martial characters are as completely pedestrian as possible and maybe if they had descent advancement and heroic bursts were defined. (yes I know the monk kind of can but that is apparently magic or something so we can put some guidance on that)
 
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Ashrym

Hero
to me 5 abandoned the DM to his own devices about what might be accomplished via skill and failed to create shared expectations for the players and DM both
Abandonded. Empowered. Tomato tomato lol. It's one of those things where both are good but either infringes on the other.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Abandonded. Empowered. Tomato tomato lol. It's one of those things where both are good but either infringes on the other.
Given that glowing description in the 5e pdf Tony quoted a while back of the role of magic apparently the shared expectation is perhaps meant to be a caster will do it they can do everything. It read a bit like you are a fool making life 10x harder if you don't have a caster.
 
Given that glowing description in the 5e pdf Tony quoted a while back of the role of magic apparently the shared expectation is perhaps meant to be a caster will do it they can do everything. It read a bit like you are a fool making life 10x harder if you don't have a caster.
I suppose it's worth nothing that, while checks are mostly open-ended and undefined, leaving the DM virtual carte blanche to rule as he likes (and those that are explicit are usually pretty mundane), spells are fairly directive in what they do. The player pushes a button, the DM is mostly obliged to narrate what the corresponding spell description says happens.
Mostly.

So shared expectations when it comes to what happens when you cast a spell, are established by 5e. FWIW.

(I think Hussar or Manbearcat or somebody else around here smarter than me - I know, that doesn't narrow it down much - said something about casters and non-casters "playing two different games." I suppose that's part of it.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
(I think Hussar or Manbearcat or somebody else around here smarter than me - I know, that doesn't narrow it down much - said something about casters and non-casters "playing two different games." I suppose that's part of it.)
See it looks like casters have the same amount of proficiency with skills to use and wing it with as well as their I can do this now passes. What If they had to put skills into spell schools or similar I have to train in these 2 magical skills which are really just access passes for the learning spells and not of much value outside of that.

BA even has people deciding its wrong to let rogues have expertise because it looks out of sync or some such. I am thinking to challenge one of them you have to have obstacles completely out of reach of everyone else might be the complaint or something. But what better performances might I shoot for ... shrug. wave your hands in the air. How much are we cramming in session zero?
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am thinking to challenge one of them you have to have obstacles completely out of reach of everyone else might be the complaint or something.
I think you need better level gated defined stunts which they can weigh in against so its not pass or fail as much as see you can reliably do more you dont have to compete against a minimalist thing and you can exert like the monk does with ki to do more.
 
See it looks like casters have the same amount of proficiency with skills to use and wing it with as well as their I can do this now passes. What If they had to put skills into spell schools or similar I have to train in these 2 magical skills which are really just access passes for the learning spells and not of much value outside of that.
I've seen systems go there. GURPS most dramatically.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Off topic rambling on halt mode engage now...

Focused Volley - encounter power (you really need to prep the arrows in hand to have the accuracy)
"With that many feathers flying at least one if not more must get through his defenses."

In 4e terms it might be a feat... other limits might be made on it like on the first attack you make in a battle if you are not surprised. And it might average more damage making the hunter more striker ish.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Based on using the optional rules a 12th level fighter can take 12 attacks against commoners, auto-hit, apply bonus damage, and overkill quite easily.
my experience was by the time it got really impressive lawnmower the fighting man never came up
 

Ashrym

Hero
See it looks like casters have the same amount of proficiency with skills to use and wing it with as well as their I can do this now passes. What If they had to put skills into spell schools or similar I have to train in these 2 magical skills which are really just access passes for the learning spells and not of much value outside of that.

BA even has people deciding its wrong to let rogues have expertise because it looks out of sync or some such. I am thinking to challenge one of them you have to have obstacles completely out of reach of everyone else might be the complaint or something. But what better performances might I shoot for ... shrug. wave your hands in the air. How much are we cramming in session zero?

Six
skills: rogue
Five skills: bard, ranger
Four skills: barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, sorcerer, wizard

That's where it sits at a first glance but the number of proficiencies is misleading. One of the key differences that becomes very prominent in play is the focus on ability score bonuses the way it's set up drastically influences skill bonuses. A fighter with a +5 STR bonus get that bonus to much different checks than a wizard with +5 INT bonus. This is true whether they have the same number of proficiencies or even if they take the exact same proficiencies. BA DC's are basically a measurement of 1/3 proficiency, 1/3 (natural) ability, and 1/3 average likelihood (chance and/or circumstance).

Only looking at the proficiencies and proficiency bonuses is ignoring the greater bulk of the equation.

Expertise is actually included in the BA math for those rare 25 DC's and chance (getting lucky) applies to the possible 30 DC's. It's not that expertise is out of sync with BA. It's that people see a bonus and think their favorite class should also have the same bonus even though DC 20 is the normal high / hard task that requires full proficiency and ability score to be reliable under pressure and represents extreme ability.

BA DC's are based on the bonuses possible, not the other way around or in spite of them. It's a number porn concern. Which if funny because those DC's only have meaning if the character is trying to do something that spectacular in the first place and defined as in doubt by the DM. Without that context it's bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers. The fact that characters can reasonably try such an action even with a 2-5 point gap in the bonus is the benefit for BA.

I'm going to also use an example of the paladin in our test campaign right now. The group often tries to ambush if they can. The paladin sucks at stealth -- 10 DEX, no proficiency, armor disadvantage. The ranger and bard both have proficiency and 16 DEX / 14 DEX respectively. Neither the sorcerer nor the wizard has proficiency but both also have 14 DEX. Sneaking in as a group and using a group stealth check makes the paladin's terrible stealth almost meaningless. Against typical passive perceptions it's generally a lost cause for the paladin, generally a success for the ranger or bard or both, and statistically likely at least one of the other casters makes those checks. A group check means they need 3 out of 5 characters to beat passive perception so the odds are in their favor.

Now it's not just one or two scouts moving ahead. Never separate the party. ;)

After the basic class plus background proficiency bonuses plus ability score bonuses (which covers more variety of checks than the actual proficiencies) we're looking at add-on proficiencies from races or subclass, or actual class enhancements. The half-elf number of bonus proficiencies is worth just as much as a class or background, and that would move a sorcerer up to 6 proficiencies before a barbarian, but would also move a paladin up before a wizard. Jack-of-all-trades covers a lot of bases while reliable talent is fantastic.

I don't want to derail again, but I would also point out fighter subclasses tend to include benefits with some more often than others. The UA rune knight gives a lot of skill benefits, for example, but the minor benefits seem to happen more often with a fighter subclass than with other subclasses.

I just wanted to point out that ability and skill checks vary by a lot more than the number of proficiencies. Equal number of proficiencies doesn't actually create equality in those choices because of the other related factors.
 

Ashrym

Hero
my experience was by the time it got really impressive lawnmower the fighting man never came up
Hey now, taking a high level fighter to a goblin horde fight always looked good. It was just way over the top that a single goblin guard could be auto-hit a dozen times and easily take over 70 damage when the thing only had less than a hit die to start.

I thought it looked good to picture but generally pointless given how little of a threat those opponents were at those levels.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
.Which if funny because those DC's only have meaning if the character is trying to do something that spectacular in the first place and defined as in doubt by the DM. Without that context it's bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers.
This part is why I was talking about well defined stunts where they could go oooh lookie lookie at the cool possibility and yes it is not a fluke that only an idiot would try but something within decent odds that those numbers actually back up, ie they lack those defined expectations.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I thought it looked good to picture but generally pointless given how little of a threat those opponents were at those levels.
Oh I thought it was an interesting thing because it hearkened to the one man army reference Chainmail. I was simply disappointed it was only really fluff in game. If you build a hundred man Swarm in 4e terms and your paragon hero can definitely decimate it and its a reasonable element of an encounter well there is that too.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
the fact that characters can reasonably try such an action even with a 2-5 point gap in the bonus is the benefit for BA.
Had someone try and say that and immediately declare something which was entirely doable and reasonable with a low level skill power in 4e was nearly impossible to do and that it stepped on the toes of casters if they didnt make it epic I am unimpressed with DM fiat.

Oh and a level 1 spell could do for the entire party in 5e what that skill power would do in 4e... but its epic because as a skill use in 5e its unlimited even though you might only really need it once a day
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Off topic rambling on halt mode engage now...

Focused Volley - encounter power (you really need to prep the arrows in hand to have the accuracy)
"With that many feathers flying at least one if not more must get through his defenses."

In 4e terms it might be a feat... other limits might be made on it like on the first attack you make in a battle if you are not surprised. And it might average more damage making the hunter more striker ish.
Wait i said halt mode and didnt disengage dang it.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Six skills: rogue
Five skills: bard, ranger
Four skills: barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, sorcerer, wizard
Generally speaking though the class with the glut of proficiencies like the rogue or bard are getting more support for that glut isnt (things like reliable talent ) ... if you were seeing reliable talent on monk instead of rogue to represent his extremely wise disciplined application of his skills as opposed to the creative use of the rogue. Then the classes other factors would be being used to balance it out a bit. Let super creative Bard have better critical effects on his skill use maybe. Shrug now that kind of thing would be using the distinctions in class style to adjust skill functional value in a stylistic way.

That's where it sits at a first glance but the number of proficiencies is misleading. One of the key differences that becomes very prominent in play is the focus on ability score bonuses the way it's set up drastically influences skill bonuses. A fighter with a +5 STR bonus get that bonus to much different checks than a wizard with +5 INT bonus. This is true whether they have the same number of proficiencies or even if they take the exact same proficiencies. BA DC's are basically a measurement of 1/3 proficiency, 1/3 (natural) ability, and 1/3 average likelihood (chance and/or circumstance).
I do not see how the natural creates any unexpected swing on the equation... But that latter is the DMs little red car entering the picture... you know having no foundation for shared expectations only exaggerates it?The vroom vroom fiat mobile can make most of one check or another easier or harder for a simplistic example or more impactful.
Only looking at the proficiencies and proficiency bonuses is ignoring the greater bulk of the equation.
Maybe but I keep thinking the bulk of the equation is when we quit measuring the differences between skills and start looking at how skills line up with the other type of abilities which have the old fashioned benefit of yeh but I spent a resource I get more assumption. Regardless of how the checks line up with one another there seems no guidelines in how what they can do relates with what a plot coupon class abilities can do (usually spells). And there really doesn't seem to be a general expectation or guidelines of equity because remember without the spell caster adventuring will be 10 times more difficult it says so up front on the label.
 

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