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Dear Hasbro: about those minis
- Thread starter molonel
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Kae'Yoss
First Post
Ah, ye olde lament.
sorry to burst your bubbles, guys (and gals), but I doubt it will happen - there might be some special cases, but they'll stick to their current strategy.
Why? Because it sells. People are buying those, a lot. In order to convince them to switch to non-random, they'd have to make more profit that way. Not as much. More. If they made the same, the change wouldn't be worthwhile.
How would it go? They'd go from very few products to very many products. Right now, they are handling something like 3 sets at a time. That's 3 products to sell/distribut/track.
If you changed to single minis and/or themed packs, you'd have dozens of products. They would have to sell them separately, stores would have to order them separately, and would have to provide a lot more shelf space for the stuff.
Someone in this very thread commented about how bothersome warhammer minis are.
The next thing is the price. Don't think that it would stay the same per figure, or would be the same for all figures. Right now, they have some leeway in the design: They can design some more impressive pieces if they have something a little simpler in return. It works out because of the random distribution. They're going to sell X of figure 1 and X of figure 2.
But with individual figures, each has to pull its own weight, each is sold separately, and you'll sell Y of figure 1 and Z of figure 2. They will be priced accordingly.
And even beyond that, they know what the figures sell for. I'm sure they monitor the secondary markets to see how much the Beholder goes for right now or what people are paying for Drizzt.
Right now, you could say something like: A booster costs $15 (officially), that's, say, 6.5 for the rare, 1.5 for each uncommon and 1 for each common.
But that won't mean that every figure that would formerly have been made rare would be for 6.5, not even that they would all go for, say, 7 (the mark-up is because they're now sold separately). You'd have some for 6 quid, others for 8, some for 10 and more. Right now, they don't mind because those figures sell boosters - people buy more boosters to pull that monster, and resellers buy more cases to have more of those monsters in stock.
The next problem is that not all figures would sell equally well. Right now, they can do more obscure stuff, because everything sells equally (it's part of random sets).
But if they switched, some figures would sell quite well (beholders, dragons, packs of orcs), but others would not sell so well, and some would hardly ever be bought.
That would mean that many shops would probably not even bother getting the less popular stuff, or they'd buy some once, never sell them and eventually put them on the grab table. They wouldn't re-order them, or anything similar.
Sooner or later, Wizards would stop making those. Those of you who like more exotic stuff would be left in the rain - the consumer has spoken, and it turns out he doesn't care about what you want.
Finally, there's the fact that now everyone can buy exactly what they want. Instead of getting 12 boosters got have a good chance on the Balor, as well as some other NPCs, low-level critters and several tougher monsters, you'd buy one balor, a dragon, a couple other beasties, 10 skeletons, 10 zombies, and 10 orcs. (About a third of those figures you'd otherwise have bought. Okay, that's a bit exaggerated, but the fact is that you would only buy exactly those figures you needed).
I think everyone can see at once that Wizards doesn't want to have less money after the switch. If people buy less figures, there's only one other way to keep total amount of money flowing intot heir coffers even...
Sure, you say, with those singles and theme packs, they'd get new customers, but the question is whether those who'd buy now (and who didn't buy before - and remember: those guys who buy from eBay sellers ultimately pay Wizards some money, because the eBay sellers get boosters from Wizards and open them to sell what's inside) would make up for all the trouble that arises: now exta sales because of random packing, no "distribution of weight" effect of minis within a set", administrative overhead, differing popularity...
So I guess DDM is going to stay, and going to stay as it is now. It seems it isn't the worst thing to happen, and with the secondary market, you can actually buy what you want and ignore the rest.
Sure, some things have high prices, but at least the "pack of orcs" issue is taken care of this way: Commons and Uncommons tend to be quite cheap on eBay, you can get your dozen orcs for a decent price:
I just looked for like 20 seconds on ebay and found a buy it now auction where you could get 12 orc savages for $9.73, including shipping - 81 cent per orc.
Or here: 12 howling orcs for $8.18 - 68 cent per orc. In the same auction, you could get 50 of these for 23 quid - 0.46 per figure!
I doubt that Wizards could/would offer those kinds of deal.
Another suggestion I keep hearing: "Why not make theme packs without stats? They wouldn't be useful for collectors or DDM skirmish players!"
I doubt it would happen. They won't split up their customer base. Right now, they have one product that can be sold to three groups: Roleplayers, Skirmishers and Collectors - Though there is a lot of overlap between those groups (especially collectors, I doubt that there are many who buy those just to have them, never to play with them), and I strongly suspect that roleplayers are the majority.
If they now introduced stuff for roleplayers only, most of the roleplayers who'd buy those packs wouldn't buy boosters. That means that instead of selling 100 boosters with 800 minis (just a number, nothing near reality), they'd sell like 40 boosters with 320 minis plus 40 ten-packs with orcs, kobolds, undead... for a total of 720 minis, spread over two products.
That new product would not only steal customers from their own product - because you know what you get, you'd buy less to boot.
Did you ever consider that other people don't share your opinion? I know for a fact that I like the game. And so do most (almost all) other players in my gaming circle (the only guy who doesn't like it got bored because he never won). And I'm sure there's lots of other people who like the game.
A lot smaller than what DDM has, that's for sure.
Deathknell never cost 15 quid. The official price was $13, I think - and you hardly ever pay that: Usually, the shops sell individual boosters for several dollars less, and if you buy by the case (12 boosters), it gets even cheaper.
sorry to burst your bubbles, guys (and gals), but I doubt it will happen - there might be some special cases, but they'll stick to their current strategy.
Why? Because it sells. People are buying those, a lot. In order to convince them to switch to non-random, they'd have to make more profit that way. Not as much. More. If they made the same, the change wouldn't be worthwhile.
How would it go? They'd go from very few products to very many products. Right now, they are handling something like 3 sets at a time. That's 3 products to sell/distribut/track.
If you changed to single minis and/or themed packs, you'd have dozens of products. They would have to sell them separately, stores would have to order them separately, and would have to provide a lot more shelf space for the stuff.
Someone in this very thread commented about how bothersome warhammer minis are.
The next thing is the price. Don't think that it would stay the same per figure, or would be the same for all figures. Right now, they have some leeway in the design: They can design some more impressive pieces if they have something a little simpler in return. It works out because of the random distribution. They're going to sell X of figure 1 and X of figure 2.
But with individual figures, each has to pull its own weight, each is sold separately, and you'll sell Y of figure 1 and Z of figure 2. They will be priced accordingly.
And even beyond that, they know what the figures sell for. I'm sure they monitor the secondary markets to see how much the Beholder goes for right now or what people are paying for Drizzt.
Right now, you could say something like: A booster costs $15 (officially), that's, say, 6.5 for the rare, 1.5 for each uncommon and 1 for each common.
But that won't mean that every figure that would formerly have been made rare would be for 6.5, not even that they would all go for, say, 7 (the mark-up is because they're now sold separately). You'd have some for 6 quid, others for 8, some for 10 and more. Right now, they don't mind because those figures sell boosters - people buy more boosters to pull that monster, and resellers buy more cases to have more of those monsters in stock.
The next problem is that not all figures would sell equally well. Right now, they can do more obscure stuff, because everything sells equally (it's part of random sets).
But if they switched, some figures would sell quite well (beholders, dragons, packs of orcs), but others would not sell so well, and some would hardly ever be bought.
That would mean that many shops would probably not even bother getting the less popular stuff, or they'd buy some once, never sell them and eventually put them on the grab table. They wouldn't re-order them, or anything similar.
Sooner or later, Wizards would stop making those. Those of you who like more exotic stuff would be left in the rain - the consumer has spoken, and it turns out he doesn't care about what you want.
Finally, there's the fact that now everyone can buy exactly what they want. Instead of getting 12 boosters got have a good chance on the Balor, as well as some other NPCs, low-level critters and several tougher monsters, you'd buy one balor, a dragon, a couple other beasties, 10 skeletons, 10 zombies, and 10 orcs. (About a third of those figures you'd otherwise have bought. Okay, that's a bit exaggerated, but the fact is that you would only buy exactly those figures you needed).
I think everyone can see at once that Wizards doesn't want to have less money after the switch. If people buy less figures, there's only one other way to keep total amount of money flowing intot heir coffers even...
Sure, you say, with those singles and theme packs, they'd get new customers, but the question is whether those who'd buy now (and who didn't buy before - and remember: those guys who buy from eBay sellers ultimately pay Wizards some money, because the eBay sellers get boosters from Wizards and open them to sell what's inside) would make up for all the trouble that arises: now exta sales because of random packing, no "distribution of weight" effect of minis within a set", administrative overhead, differing popularity...
So I guess DDM is going to stay, and going to stay as it is now. It seems it isn't the worst thing to happen, and with the secondary market, you can actually buy what you want and ignore the rest.
Sure, some things have high prices, but at least the "pack of orcs" issue is taken care of this way: Commons and Uncommons tend to be quite cheap on eBay, you can get your dozen orcs for a decent price:
I just looked for like 20 seconds on ebay and found a buy it now auction where you could get 12 orc savages for $9.73, including shipping - 81 cent per orc.
Or here: 12 howling orcs for $8.18 - 68 cent per orc. In the same auction, you could get 50 of these for 23 quid - 0.46 per figure!
I doubt that Wizards could/would offer those kinds of deal.
Another suggestion I keep hearing: "Why not make theme packs without stats? They wouldn't be useful for collectors or DDM skirmish players!"
I doubt it would happen. They won't split up their customer base. Right now, they have one product that can be sold to three groups: Roleplayers, Skirmishers and Collectors - Though there is a lot of overlap between those groups (especially collectors, I doubt that there are many who buy those just to have them, never to play with them), and I strongly suspect that roleplayers are the majority.
If they now introduced stuff for roleplayers only, most of the roleplayers who'd buy those packs wouldn't buy boosters. That means that instead of selling 100 boosters with 800 minis (just a number, nothing near reality), they'd sell like 40 boosters with 320 minis plus 40 ten-packs with orcs, kobolds, undead... for a total of 720 minis, spread over two products.
That new product would not only steal customers from their own product - because you know what you get, you'd buy less to boot.
Darrell said:
Did you ever consider that other people don't share your opinion? I know for a fact that I like the game. And so do most (almost all) other players in my gaming circle (the only guy who doesn't like it got bored because he never won). And I'm sure there's lots of other people who like the game.
Storm Raven said:
A lot smaller than what DDM has, that's for sure.
Deathknell never cost 15 quid. The official price was $13, I think - and you hardly ever pay that: Usually, the shops sell individual boosters for several dollars less, and if you buy by the case (12 boosters), it gets even cheaper.
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Hussar said:
It sure is nice to put a figure on the table and say "this attacks you (don't pick up the figure and look at the name or I'll apply the paragon template to it)"
Of course, we don't hesitate to approximate should we use a monster that hasn't been done yet, or if no NPC with that selection of race, weapon(s) and armour isn't available (which is no big problem if the NPC in question is a dwarf. There are so many dwarves with axe/hammer and shield that you can pay regard to details like cloak colour and beard length
)
CharlesRyan
Adventurer
Guys, Merric's Law is dead-on. No matter how much you may want something different, the economics of the game business simply won't allow another model to succeed at D&D's level. (And by "succeed," I don't just mean "make money for WotC." I also mean "get minis into the hands of gamers who want them.")
Merric is right to point out that the development cost for prepainted plastic minis is very high, and it's prohibitive to make a mini that won't sell in quantity--or that might not sell in quantity.
But the real barrier isn't even production: it's distribution. Were minis non-randomized--or even released in tightly-themed sets--WotC would have to make guesses about which minis or sets would be popular, and which wouldn't. Then the distributors would have to make the same guesses when they place their orders. Then the retailers would have to do the same. Unless everyone guessed exactly right every time, the channel would become choked with slow-moving product. At best, the industry would have to factor the cost of that dead product into the price of the minis, increasing already-higher prices by 50%+. At worse, the system would grind to a halt, like it did after the CCG glut and the d20 glut and the 2nd-edition D&D glut, and people would go out of business and the minis would cease to be a viable product line.
And then there's the issue of what stores are prepared to carry. With WotC's randomized scheme, the D&D minis line consist of just 3 to 5 individual products per year. Easy on everyone. Compare that to Heroscape (35 or 40 products in 2 years) or Games Workshop (zillions of products). Any store can manage 3 to 5 products per year for a given line. But the more products you add, the less likely it is that a store will carry them all--or even enough of them to make the line viable. Someone pointed out that the 143 figures that Heroscape has released might be enough for D&D. Fine, but have you ever seen a store that carried all 143--or even most of them?
Randomization gets miniatures into our hands reliably and inexpensively. It may be inconvenient to go to the secondary market if you don't want to buy randomly--but it's a hell of a lot less inconvenient than the alternatives.
Merric is right to point out that the development cost for prepainted plastic minis is very high, and it's prohibitive to make a mini that won't sell in quantity--or that might not sell in quantity.
But the real barrier isn't even production: it's distribution. Were minis non-randomized--or even released in tightly-themed sets--WotC would have to make guesses about which minis or sets would be popular, and which wouldn't. Then the distributors would have to make the same guesses when they place their orders. Then the retailers would have to do the same. Unless everyone guessed exactly right every time, the channel would become choked with slow-moving product. At best, the industry would have to factor the cost of that dead product into the price of the minis, increasing already-higher prices by 50%+. At worse, the system would grind to a halt, like it did after the CCG glut and the d20 glut and the 2nd-edition D&D glut, and people would go out of business and the minis would cease to be a viable product line.
And then there's the issue of what stores are prepared to carry. With WotC's randomized scheme, the D&D minis line consist of just 3 to 5 individual products per year. Easy on everyone. Compare that to Heroscape (35 or 40 products in 2 years) or Games Workshop (zillions of products). Any store can manage 3 to 5 products per year for a given line. But the more products you add, the less likely it is that a store will carry them all--or even enough of them to make the line viable. Someone pointed out that the 143 figures that Heroscape has released might be enough for D&D. Fine, but have you ever seen a store that carried all 143--or even most of them?
Randomization gets miniatures into our hands reliably and inexpensively. It may be inconvenient to go to the secondary market if you don't want to buy randomly--but it's a hell of a lot less inconvenient than the alternatives.
Felnar
First Post
what if D&D books we sold in the same manner...
*tears book out of package*
"damn, another DMG"
*throws it in the pile with the others*
would coming out with an orc pack (or skeleton pack, goblin pack, etc) in addition to the current random packs hurt WotC's business? (I call them "Mook Packs")
As long as they dont sell the rare/cool/one-in-one-hundred-DMs-use-it figures individually, the booster pack business stays the same. Possibly even gain "casual-er" gamers as customers, which probably leads to buying a booster or two, when they wouldve never bought a booster otherwise. This sort of goes back to the D&D book analogy, where core books are sold at near cost and expansion products make the profit.
(that all said, i really dont know much about DDM, what exactly is the difference between a starter and booster pack?)
*tears book out of package*
"damn, another DMG"
*throws it in the pile with the others*
would coming out with an orc pack (or skeleton pack, goblin pack, etc) in addition to the current random packs hurt WotC's business? (I call them "Mook Packs")
As long as they dont sell the rare/cool/one-in-one-hundred-DMs-use-it figures individually, the booster pack business stays the same. Possibly even gain "casual-er" gamers as customers, which probably leads to buying a booster or two, when they wouldve never bought a booster otherwise. This sort of goes back to the D&D book analogy, where core books are sold at near cost and expansion products make the profit.
(that all said, i really dont know much about DDM, what exactly is the difference between a starter and booster pack?)
Philotomy Jurament
First Post
100% agreement. I'd be interested if I could pick what I get. As it is, though, I'm simply not a customer for DDM.Li Shenron said:
Nice to hear from you again, Charles. I trust life is treating you well?
I'll note further that the DDM team does and is considering other forms of packaging the minis - either less random, or in "adventure" sets, or in warband sets... but they haven't been able to come up with a economical way of doing so yet.
Cheers!
I'll note further that the DDM team does and is considering other forms of packaging the minis - either less random, or in "adventure" sets, or in warband sets... but they haven't been able to come up with a economical way of doing so yet.
Cheers!
humble minion
Legend
I've always assumed its the game shop shelf space issue that's driven random mini packaging myself. Walk into a game shop that stocks Warhammer, for instance, and you'll see an entire wall of blister packs and box sets reaching to the ceiling. And D&D has a much larger variety of monsters/PC types than Warhammer/WH40K has troop types.
I don't like it, but there it is.
Oh, and I've always been a bit sceptical about Merric's Laws (nothing personal, Merric!) If I want to collect X minis of various varieties to use for roleplaying, because of the random packaging, I'll have to end up paying for X+Y minis, of which Y are duplicates, silly monsters that I don't like, or things like Warforged and Dragonspawn that will never see the light of day in my games. Merric's Laws state I can choose two of cheap prices, non-random selection, and a wide range. WotC minis assume (claim?) to give low price and a wide range. But WotCs sales model makes me buy almost as many minis that I don't want (on average) as those that I do. Maybe I'm getting a cheap price per mini on sheer dumb numbers, but the price per mini-that-I'll-actually-use is a LOT higher. Cheap price on paper, maybe, but when that cheap price comes with the proviso that I'll also have to spend a lot of money on stuff I'll never use, the argument loses a lot of weight...
I don't like it, but there it is.
Oh, and I've always been a bit sceptical about Merric's Laws (nothing personal, Merric!) If I want to collect X minis of various varieties to use for roleplaying, because of the random packaging, I'll have to end up paying for X+Y minis, of which Y are duplicates, silly monsters that I don't like, or things like Warforged and Dragonspawn that will never see the light of day in my games. Merric's Laws state I can choose two of cheap prices, non-random selection, and a wide range. WotC minis assume (claim?) to give low price and a wide range. But WotCs sales model makes me buy almost as many minis that I don't want (on average) as those that I do. Maybe I'm getting a cheap price per mini on sheer dumb numbers, but the price per mini-that-I'll-actually-use is a LOT higher. Cheap price on paper, maybe, but when that cheap price comes with the proviso that I'll also have to spend a lot of money on stuff I'll never use, the argument loses a lot of weight...
delericho
Legend
humble minion said:
Of course, you can then resell those unwanted minis on the secondary market. This has the dual benefit of recouping some of the money you've spent, and also making those minis available to the people who won't buy the random packs, or didn't get the minis they wanted.
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