They have the numbers. You don't. You just have feelings that something is off, and feelings aren't a reason to change things.
I don't have numbers? Where did all my numbers come from then? I mean, sure, I felt something was off. Then I looked at the numbers. Then I checked with other people and sought other opinions, then I looked at the numbers AGAIN... I mean, I'm no paid researcher, but I really think declaring I'm basing everything off feelings when I'm showing my work is pretty lazy for a counter-argument. Especially for someone who hasn't done more than just shout I'm wrong without backing it up.
Right. One(mine) actually deals with balance. The other(yours) is a white room isolated comparison that does not. Your minor healing spell is not intended to counteract what you are comparing it to. If it was, it would.
So, would your claim be that Wizards has NEVER overvalued something and NEVER made a mistake? I certainly would never make that claim, there is after all a trivially easy thing to point to that shows that they DO overestimate, and reams and reams of things to point towards that show that they make mistakes.
And yours doesn't deal with actual balance, yours deals with the feeling that WoTC totally got it right the first time, despite any evidence to the contrary.
Data when used incorrectly isn't anything at all. Basically you have a poll and are spinning the numbers to suit your desires, but WotC has the actual play balance to consider, not your feelings on the matter.
And you still aren't doing anything to disprove me, just shouting that I'm using my feelings, despite all the facts I keep using. Getting kind of sad.
You haven't provided a shred of evidence that there is anything wrong with balance. You've taken two isolated things and compared them in a white room and declared that something is ubalanced based on a white room situation that doesn't deal with entire party vs. adventuring day balance.
And you keep asserting that I need to consider the entire party... but refuse to acknowledge that you can't predict an entire party. You are demanding the impossible, then asserting that Wizards must have done it right the first time, because... reasons! White Rooms! Feelings!
You want to prove yourself correct? Then you need to show your work, not just insist my work is bad because I'm only looking at healing abilities vs damage.
Um, no. That was entirely you. I never, ever made that claim. If you wanted to actually get my claim correct(and you don't), you would have compared all of the abilities available to one 11th level group to another, and not deliberately twisted what I said compared a 1st level ability to a 6th level ability in a white room again and declared it to be what I am saying.
I think your deliberate Strawman is ridiculous, too. We are in agreement!
I am comparing the majority of the abilities together. Damage, spells, hp, AC, class abilities. Sure, I haven't listed every single thing in a 20 page report, but I certainly have done more than compare a scaling healing to a 6th level spell. Which I did because you claimed that the damage mitigation abilities of ANY two parties would be the same. Fighters get heavy armor, so do clerics, fighter damage, cleric damage, fighter ability to restore hp, cleric ability to restore hp. What more should I list for you to demonstrate that the fighter has less damage mitigation?
Clerics don't have all of their spells for combat. A group of 4 clerics will need use a good percentage of them for utility during the adventuring day, cratering their ability to dish out damage in combat. Again, you are white rooming things by incorrectly declaring that clerics will have all of their spells to use in battle.
Why would they need to use them during the adventuring day? Is the DM forcing them to use spells against their will? After all, it isn't like clerics have a massive amount of utility that they are required to use.
And if the Clerics absolutely MUST use their spells to overcome the utility challenges of the adventuring day... aren't the fighter's just stuck and unable to progress? I mean, they get zero spells for utility. And if they are facing the same challenges... then the clerics don't need their spells for utility.
And if they do so, they're gimping themselves in utility outside of combat and will suffer for it. AND they have zeroed out their 3rd and 4th level slots in 3 out of 6-8 encounters for that adventuring day. Now they have 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd, 2 5th and 1 6th to divide up over 3-5 more encounters AND all utility for the day.
Yes, you have accurately noted the usage of resources. Good job. Now tell me why I should care about this theoretical utility that you are making up? Especially since they still have many spell slots.
You also can't use Booming Blade unless fighters can use feats. All books outside of core are also optional and can't be assumed to be in play.
Why not? I told you that was exactly what I was going to do. Didn't you read my post? I literally stated this "Because if you take the correct combination of abilities, the clerics can deal 3d8+2d8+wis+4d8+wis every round for a fight, while still having the Heal spells, so is that really balanced against 4 fighters with no feats?
And your response was the following.
Yes, because "for a fight" doesn't equal "for every fight" like fighters maintain.
I asked "Is that really balanced" and you said "Yes". You said it was balanced. Now suddenly, after I demonstrate the reality of that, you claim that it is unfair to not give the fighter's feats, and I can't use non-PHB materials and and and.... funny how quickly "Yes!" turned into "Wait, no, you can't do that." Maybe you should have either read a bit more closely, or considered your answer more.
They're going to get 3-5 more, so...
So you ARE white rooming this into a situation that will never occur in actual game play and assuming that clerics only ever cast spells in combat.
Now try down 1/3 to half your spells AND having to heal yourselves with at least some of those slots instead of using all your slots for offense. You know, like actually happens in real world game play and not fake white room situations where spellcasters have 100% of their slots for utility and 100% of their slots for combat in order to show how they are better than squares both in and out of combat.
You said Fighter's cannot fall behind in damage. I'm demonstrating that is false. You also keep harping on about this utility that I am required to spend spells on, but again, what utility am I required to use spells on? Demonstrate how I am required to spend half of Team Cleric's spells on utility spells, while Team Fighter can solve these same challenges without spells. You can't just assert yourself to be correct, you have to provide evidence.
Wait! You've used up every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell on offense, then said you have 2 5th and a 6th for the last fight. Where are you getting this mythical clerical healing from? They have no slots to use any. You have spare the dying to stabilize the clerics that go unconscious and that's it.
Unless of course you want to take back a considerable amount of damage output so that you can actually heal and a considerable amount more for the utility you need to use out of combat in an adventuring day, in which case fighters action surge past you.
I have the 6th level slots. You know, the four 6th level slots that a team of four clerics would have is they had 6th level slots left? That's where that 70 came from. I compared the cleric's casting Heal, like I said, and having four of them becuase they are a team of clerics, like I said, against the Fighter's getting to use second wind.... like I said.
You are really making me question if you understood the premise.
Since you think that clerics have 100% of their spells for combat, 100% for healing, and 100% for utility, you clearly don't.
I'm also, given how you have twisted my claims and how you've used more than 100% of clerical spell slots, not going to trust your numbers as to how much fighters can dish out per fight.
What are you talking about? Do I need to take back that congratulations I gave before for accurately counting resources?
Team Cleric has each cleric start with 4 first level spells, 3 second level, 3 third level, 3 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level.
If they cast Spiritual Weapon at 4th and Spirit Guardians at 3rd, three times each, then they have 4 first level spells, 3 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level spell.
Then, if they cast Spiritual Weapon three times at 2nd, then they have 4 first level spells, 0 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level spell.
Then, if they cast Heal as a 6th level, each member has 4 first level spells, 0 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 0 sixth level spells.
So... I haven't even used 100% of their spells, let alone 300% of them. And, I used the one spell on healing to demonstrate that the Heal Spell once is more healing than the fighter over the adventuring day, unless you get three short rests. I think your feelings are the ones that are suspect, since you are just ranting about me using 100% of the spells for healing (one spell) and 100% of the spells for utility (still not demonstrated) when that is clearly not what I demonstrated.