D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Willie the Duck]

Good example of how it’s so hard to really evaluate these little changes without the full context.

Also points out we need to know if other classes are taking power cuts or not. I am all in favor of the Spirit Guardians/Spiritual Weapon combo not being the go-to option for tier-2 clerics* (gets old quickly), but at the same time are clerics** the most overvalued class in the game, particularly among the full casters? If such spells are being cut, does the rest of the cleric rework speak to commensurate power increases elsewhere (and if not, do we think that's bringing clerics closer to a baseline)?
*who are in a position to burn two spells per combat
**particularly not standout archetypes like Twilight

Edit: At some point here when I have time I'll add my overall thoughts on these changes.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Also points out we need to know if other classes are taking power cuts or not. I am all in favor of the Spirit Guardians/Spiritual Weapon combo not being the go-to option for tier-2 clerics* (gets old quickly), but at the same time are clerics** the most overvalued class in the game, particularly among the full casters? If such spells are being cut, does the rest of the cleric rework speak to commensurate power increases elsewhere (and if not, do we think that's bringing clerics closer to a baseline)?
*who are in a position to burn two spells per combat
**particularly not standout archetypes like Twilight

Edit: At some point here when I have time I'll add my overall thoughts on these changes.

We've certainly seen some of the rework for other classes. In particular for feats among martials - and what's happened is that the big centralising OP combos (Great Weapon Master + accuracy buff, PAM + Spear + Shield, PAM + Sentinel comboing for lockdown out of reach, Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert) have all been nerfed while everything that wasn't top tier has been either kept steady or buffed.

The cleric has been surgically targeted with a single nerf to its OP combo (and a second nerf to a spell that was functioning in unintended ways). And the part that was targeted was the part that combos with literally anything the cleric does rather than the more powerful seeming part. (It's also been targeted with a second probably minor nerf round memorising into spell slots).

The baseline intended seems to be basically where the cleric was without this one OP combo. Possibly higher or possibly just more flexible thanks to the new Orders. (And even Twilight probably doesn't now need much of a nerf; even the regenerating temp hit points are far less oppressive at level 6 than they were at level 2, and the heavy armour + weapon prof is now available to everyone).

 

[Willie the Duck]

We've certainly seen some of the rework for other classes. In particular for feats among martials - and what's happened is that the big centralising OP combos (Great Weapon Master + accuracy buff, PAM + Spear + Shield, PAM + Sentinel comboing for lockdown out of reach, Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert) have all been nerfed while everything that wasn't top tier has been either kept steady or buffed.

The cleric has been surgically targeted with a single nerf to its OP combo (and a second nerf to a spell that was functioning in unintended ways). And the part that was targeted was the part that combos with literally anything the cleric does rather than the more powerful seeming part. (It's also been targeted with a second probably minor nerf round memorising into spell slots).

The baseline intended seems to be basically where the cleric was without this one OP combo. Possibly higher or possibly just more flexible thanks to the new Orders. (And even Twilight probably doesn't now need much of a nerf; even the regenerating temp hit points are far less oppressive at level 6 than they were at level 2, and the heavy armour + weapon prof is now available to everyone).

Tend to agree -- not just feats but also nuanced 'tricks' like getting rid of sneak attacks as reactions or with SCAGtrips or the like. The point about SW being the one that works with other effects is good.

 

[billd91]

Maybe a better implementation would be to only give the creature a 2nd save before they are perma-banished at the end of the minute?

Not sure that’s much of an improvement. One of 5e banishment‘s significant strengths is the caster was in charge of when the banished creature returned (barring loss of concentration). So it worked really well as a way to temporarily shunt off a combatant and then let all your buddies prepare held attacks for when you dropped the spell and the combatant returned. A second save to avoid being deported back home may allow you to come back, but the known duration still gives the cleric!s buddies a chance to prep a coordinated welcome on your return.

The repeated save provides for uncertainty In the return timing. That’s good and a reduction in the spell‘s power. But I agree with Xamnam it may be too much since a number of things you might want to banish are magic resistant and have advantage on those saves - making them REAL hard to actually banish with multiple saves.

 

[billd91]

I am far less bothered by the spamability of guidance than I am by it being a reaction. I’ve found we can control the spamming by emphasizing how obvious and prior to the guided check it has to be. I don‘t let them say “oh, wait, guidance!” after the other player has made the roll. If they try to use it around others, it’s clear they‘re invoking divine blessing like Father Mulcahy blessing a jeep (It ain’t subtle).

 

[Clint_L]

Also points out we need to know if other classes are taking power cuts or not. I am all in favor of the Spirit Guardians/Spiritual Weapon combo not being the go-to option for tier-2 clerics* (gets old quickly), but at the same time are clerics** the most overvalued class in the game, particularly among the full casters? If such spells are being cut, does the rest of the cleric rework speak to commensurate power increases elsewhere (and if not, do we think that's bringing clerics closer to a baseline)?
*who are in a position to burn two spells per combat
**particularly not standout archetypes like Twilight

Edit: At some point here when I have time I'll add my overall thoughts on these changes.

Clerics were already one of the best classes in the game, and not being able to run those two spells at the same time doesn't change that. And Divine Spark is a baseline buff.

I'm pretty sure clerics will be just fine without that cheesy combo.

 

[Stalker0]

Not sure that’s much of an improvement. One of 5e banishment‘s significant strengths is the caster was in charge of when the banished creature returned (barring loss of concentration).

Yeah probably the better way to go with Banishment is....if they come back have them come back in a random 150 feet direction away from the original spot. That greatly reduces the chance of a party mass readied action kill fest on the creature, gives it a little breathing room to come back into the fight.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Clerics were already one of the best classes in the game, and not being able to run those two spells at the same time doesn't change that. And Divine Spark is a baseline buff.

I'm pretty sure clerics will be just fine without that cheesy combo.

I didn't say anything to suggest they wouldn't. My point was I wanted to know if the general down powering was going to be consistent and/or if the devs were intending there to be a commensurate boost elsewhere. As Neonchameleon pointed out, there seems to be a general trend towards clipping the combos without boosts elsewhere. If there were a class I am worried about losing their power combos, it would be rogue (no more procing SA on reactions or with SCAGtrips, etc.).

All this makes me super curious to see what happens with fighters/barbarians on one end and wizards on the other.

 

[Stalker0]

Clerics were already one of the best classes in the game, and not being able to run those two spells at the same time doesn't change that.

Its widely considered one of the worst in my group. Everyone finds them painfully boring, most of the time when a player starts playing a cleric, they want to switch classes after a while.

The general argument has been, if you want to play a warrior with divine magic, go paladin. You want a support character, bard is so much more interesting. You want real magic, play a wizard or even a druid. The cleric is just meh.

 

[Clint_L]

Dunno what to tell you. Look at any large poll ranking the classes and you will find clerics near the top. And I don't think clerics have been down-powered, is my point. They lost one combo that always felt like a mistake (spiritual weapon always seemed like it should have been a concentration spell), but they gained a really good new ability and a few other quality of life upgrades. A strong class stayed strong.

And one example of a broken combo being nerfed is not an indicator of a "general" trend, so I'm not sure what rogues, already considered much weaker than clerics, have to do with it.