D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Maxperson]

No we aren't. The single hit comes from those enemies who deal single hits, not from multi-attacking foes. Even in the post you were quoting, I referenced this exact thing with the hook horror and went through it. We are talking about a single ACTION.

Right, because a monster with 3 attacks can't land just one hit.

If the most powerful 1st level heal in the entire game can't counter the damage from a 1st level spell.... isn't that a problem?

No. PCs are not balanced against one another or even 1st level spells used by monsters. Taken in a white room where there are only the two spells being compared to one another, I guess it could be a problem. Taken in the actual game where there are many other resources bouncing around, including hit dice afterwards, no it's not a problem at all.

Doesn't it show that damage =/= healing?

No. Healing is more than just one spell.

And we aren't comparing builds, a healer shouldn't be balanced as more or less effective depending on the AC of their party member, that's silly.

A healer isn't balanced around 1 spell, or even their magic vs. the damage of other spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Right, because a monster with 3 attacks can't land just one hit.

No. PCs are not balanced against one another or even 1st level spells used by monsters. Taken in a white room where there are only the two spells being compared to one another, I guess it could be a problem. Taken in the actual game where there are many other resources bouncing around, including hit dice afterwards, no it's not a problem at all.

No. Healing is more than just one spell.

A healer isn't balanced around 1 spell, or even their magic vs. the damage of other spells.

This exatly.
On top of that,

• a level 1 cure wounds can undo the average damage of a level 1 burning hand against a single person.
• Having the most basic healing spell undo the whole damage of a first level spell makes combat very boring. We encountered that phenomen in the playtest. I as the DM could do nothing to scare my players (with usual low level means), because every damage I dealt was nullified with one action. So having a clock that ticks down is good for the game. Healing spells should just slow down the clock, or halt it for the frontline.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I disagree with your resonings and prefer not to defute your arguments step by step.
I just iterate: having one clearly more powerful spell or weapon is not a fix for the underlying problem. It just makes the game more one dimensional.

If this is how you like your game to be balanced. Ok. But it is not good game design.

So the solution is to nerf the only thing that is at the proper power level, instead of buffing the rest? Again, my position isn't that I left everything else alone and kept the basic Healing Spirit. My position is I kept the basic healing spirit, it hasn't caused any issues at any table I've used it at, AND I've buffed other healing.

Now, I haven't been able to test my buffed healing spells, but that's just a lack of players at the moment.

@unreliable spell: why do you think, hit chance does not have anything to do with average damage vs healing rate?

Because when I build a cleric or a druid, I do not determine the AC of my allies. In fact, I have very limited control over my allies abilities at all. The only way I have any control over them is to buff them. And buffing is not healing.

So it seems a bit strange to base the effectiveness of my character off of someone else's character choices.

This exatly.
On top of that,

• a level 1 cure wounds can undo the average damage of a level 1 burning hand against a single person.

Haven't read Max's yet, but I'll grab these points separately.

Sure, it can heal the damage on one person. But a single target spell like Magic Missiles or Guiding Bolt does too much damage for Cure Wounds to heal. The point was to demonstrate 1) That I have referenced AOE saves before, so complaining about them now is silly and 2) That there are many spells at 1st level that deal more damage than Cure Wounds heals... like all of them.

• Having the most basic healing spell undo the whole damage of a first level spell makes combat very boring. We encountered that phenomen in the playtest. I as the DM could do nothing to scare my players (with usual low level means), because every damage I dealt was nullified with one action. So having a clock that ticks down is good for the game. Healing spells should just slow down the clock, or halt it for the frontline.

Why should a party with a dedicated healer be scared? Is a party with a dedicated Face scared about failing basic social encounters? Is a party with a dedicated explorer scared about leaving town? Those may be just basic, easy things.... but we are talking about the most basic role of healers. Restoring hp caused by damage.

Also, it is interesting that you refer to Cure Wounds as "the most basic healing spell". It is accurate to a degree. Do you know what you could also call it? The strongest single target healing spell until Life Transference. And until Life Transference was added to the game, it was the strongest single target healing spell until Heal.

I mean, look at the list. Healing word is weaker. Goodberry is spread over multiple targets generally, at the very least it takes 10 actions. Prayer of Healing is multi-target and only heals as much as Cure wounds. Aura of Vitality could be stronger, but it is often spread over multiple turns and multiple targets, and the base line 2d6 is about the same as Cure Wounds at level 1. Mass Healing Word? Mass Cure Wounds? There is no stronger healing spell in the game for a single target until Heal.

Meanwhile, does Guiding Bolt remain the single best single target damage? Not by a long-shot. First of all, it is beaten by Inflict Wounds at 1st level. But you eventually get to things like Disintegrate which do massive damage.


And just to make my position clear, I'm only advocating for making healing spells good enough to cancel a single turn of a single monster in combat. So if you still want that clock, then you just need to have have two monsters of appropriate CR instead of one. Which you already likely did, because you need to match the parties potential action economy. There are other solutions for making the player's feel pressure than just making the damage higher. There are a lot of things I DON'T use, because they would wreck the party with little ability for them to counter-play. Heck, I realized I've almost never used enemy healers, because they aren't worth the time and effort to put on the field.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So the solution is to nerf the only thing that is at the proper power level, instead of buffing the rest? Again, my position isn't that I left everything else alone and kept the basic Healing Spirit. My position is I kept the basic healing spirit, it hasn't caused any issues at any table I've used it at, AND I've buffed other healing.

Good thing I don´t speak about nerfing the only reasonable spell. You can do whatever you want. But you can´t introduce such an imbalanced spell in an existing game. You need to buff the rest. But since the designers were not willing to errata so much in the PHB for good reason, the Healing spirit was rightfully nerfed.
Actually if I introduced healing spirit in the UA for OneDnd, I would buff healing spirit, so that the intend is clear, whatever that is and just increase the area of the spell to make sure, that everyone understands the power without rules mastery (like: out of combat, everyone can just cuddle together... wherever this is stated explicitely in the rules).

Now is the right time to buff healing spells correctly, not back then. This is why we have OneDnD, to redo things that annoyed us for a few years.

I don´t think your idea is correct though, because that would make for a lame game (as I experienced in the next playtest*), but something should be done (hint: use hit dice more).

So, how often do you want me to reiterate that, until you stop laying words in my mouth.

*if you like such a game, have fun with it, but for us, it was very lame. In some fights? Cool. In all fights? No thanks.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Right, because a monster with 3 attacks can't land just one hit.

That isn't what I said, Mr. "Don't read hidden meanings into my posts and you'll do better"

No. PCs are not balanced against one another or even 1st level spells used by monsters. Taken in a white room where there are only the two spells being compared to one another, I guess it could be a problem. Taken in the actual game where there are many other resources bouncing around, including hit dice afterwards, no it's not a problem at all.

If the party is using hit dice, then I, as the healer, AM NOT HEALING. This should be really obvious, but Hit Dice are not something a healer (as the rules stand) interact with at all. You may as well be saying that 1st level healing spells are balanced because a Long Rest restores all hp. These are things you use if you have no healer, or your healer is tapped, they are not part of the healer's tool set.

Also... since when have I compared a PC to a PC? I've talked about the spells, but that is a universal thing. And if PCs aren't balanced to be hit by spells used by monsters... well, that's a problem, isn't it?

Finally, I've been comparing one monster, against one target, with one healer in the party. Does that sound like the actual game to you? of course not, you are going to have multiple monsters attacking multiple party members.... but you are also likely to still only have one dedicated healer. That doesn't make the healer more effective, it makes them less effective.

No. Healing is more than just one spell.

I never said it wasn't only one spell? Funny how you keep reading assumptions into my posts. But what I have talked about is how the new divine spark has been recieved

The Damage? eh, it's nice, but isn't very high. Good if you run out of spells
The healing? OMG this is far too much healing, and how many times? This is far too much.

But they are identical numbers. In general, not just in a single spell, damage and healing are judged differently. People are acting like they should never be equal, and healing should always be highly limited and low. And I disagree, because all that does is ENCOURAGE the whack-a-mole that people hate so much.

A healer isn't balanced around 1 spell, or even their magic vs. the damage of other spells.

What would they be balanced around then? We can look at other healing spells, but Cure Wounds is the best single Target healing in the game for quite a big chunk of gameplay. That seems like a really good place to start, but I suppose you have a different place to look? Hopefully it isn't the thing I was referencing that you quoted, the AC of their party members, because I don't think back-seat players are very highly looked upon.

 

[Maxperson]

That isn't what I said, Mr. "Don't read hidden meanings into my posts and you'll do better"

My statement wasn't about your meaning, but about what your statement results in. When we are talking about keeping someone up for A SINGLE HIT by healing them at 10 hit points, your Red Herring about actions results in what I said, because we would have to apply every attack as a hit for what you said to matter.

If the party is using hit dice, then I, as the healer, AM NOT HEALING. This should be really obvious, but Hit Dice are not something a healer (as the rules stand) interact with at all. You may as well be saying that 1st level healing spells are balanced because a Long Rest restores all hp. These are things you use if you have no healer, or your healer is tapped, they are not part of the healer's tool set.

Apparently you only heal in white room vacuum spaces where no other PC has healing spells, no one ever uses healing potions, and no one ever uses hit dice. The rest of us play in parties that use all sorts of different methods to heal, even when there is a healer there.

This isn't about you, the healer. 5e is taken as a whole, not some isolated white room portion. 5e is played with ALL resources available to the party to be used as needed, and 5e is balanced around ALL resources, not just you the healer.

And if PCs aren't balanced to be hit by spells used by monsters... well, that's a problem, isn't it?

They are pretty balanced(just not by CR). They're just not white room balanced such that every 1st level spell is equal and/or opposite to others. Cure is not supposed to be the opposite of burning hands and is not balance to be.

Finally, I've been comparing one monster, against one target, with one healer in the party. Does that sound like the actual game to you? of course not, you are going to have multiple monsters attacking multiple party members.... but you are also likely to still only have one dedicated healer. That doesn't make the healer more effective, it makes them less effective.

Sure. And that's why you have Second Wind, healing potions, hit dice, etc. The game is not balanced around a healer. It's balanced around a party and all of its resources.

But they are identical numbers. In general, not just in a single spell, damage and healing are judged differently. People are acting like they should never be equal, and healing should always be highly limited and low. And I disagree, because all that does is ENCOURAGE the whack-a-mole that people hate so much.

Whack-a-mole is an issue, but not a new one. It has been around since 1e, though it became much more of a problem with hit points dropping to 0. That's the primary issue that results in whack-a-mole, not the healing spell itself. Your d8+whatever is going to be far less effective when cast on someone with -9 hit points.

 

[James Gasik]

That isn't what I said, Mr. "Don't read hidden meanings into my posts and you'll do better"



If the party is using hit dice, then I, as the healer, AM NOT HEALING. This should be really obvious, but Hit Dice are not something a healer (as the rules stand) interact with at all. You may as well be saying that 1st level healing spells are balanced because a Long Rest restores all hp. These are things you use if you have no healer, or your healer is tapped, they are not part of the healer's tool set.

Also... since when have I compared a PC to a PC? I've talked about the spells, but that is a universal thing. And if PCs aren't balanced to be hit by spells used by monsters... well, that's a problem, isn't it?

Finally, I've been comparing one monster, against one target, with one healer in the party. Does that sound like the actual game to you? of course not, you are going to have multiple monsters attacking multiple party members.... but you are also likely to still only have one dedicated healer. That doesn't make the healer more effective, it makes them less effective.



I never said it wasn't only one spell? Funny how you keep reading assumptions into my posts. But what I have talked about is how the new divine spark has been recieved

The Damage? eh, it's nice, but isn't very high. Good if you run out of spells
The healing? OMG this is far too much healing, and how many times? This is far too much.

But they are identical numbers. In general, not just in a single spell, damage and healing are judged differently. People are acting like they should never be equal, and healing should always be highly limited and low. And I disagree, because all that does is ENCOURAGE the whack-a-mole that people hate so much.



What would they be balanced around then? We can look at other healing spells, but Cure Wounds is the best single Target healing in the game for quite a big chunk of gameplay. That seems like a really good place to start, but I suppose you have a different place to look? Hopefully it isn't the thing I was referencing that you quoted, the AC of their party members, because I don't think back-seat players are very highly looked upon.

There is a reason to go back to the 4e style of using hit dice to heal in order to provide better healing. In 4e, a healing surge healed you for 25% of your maximum hit points.

You could only use this once per encounter with Second Wind, or outside of battle, after the 5 minute short rest. Most spells that allowed you to heal gave you your healing surge value plus a bonus of some kind.

This allowed for a Healing Word to provide a significant chunk of hp, but it also limited how much healing one could receive over the course of a day. The usual argument about healing spells comes down to this-

*The ultimate limit to how much players can accomplish in a game day is their hit point totals. Every spell slot or ability that provides healing is in addition to your use of Hit Dice.

When you take these things in aggregate, only a tough encounter can really drain the resources of non-spellcasters in any real way. In fact, some non-spellcasters, like the Fighter, even have a resource to heal on their own, that is recoverable.

So consider a 4th level Fighter with a 16 Constitution. Let's say they have 36 hit points. To actually stop them from engaging in fights, you need to get them down to 50-75% of their total hit points. By themselves, with no one else, you need to consider 4d10+8 healing from Hit Dice, and their Second Wind, which is another 1d10+2 that can refresh after a short rest.

Then you have to take into account whatever healing they could get from their Cleric/Bard/Druid/Paladin/Ranger in the party, not to mention cheap potions of healing (in a game that doesn't give you much to spend money on) and the Healer Feat.

If you're the kind of DM who uses an attrition model for adventure design, even if you limit resting using grittier rules, or ban the purchase of healing potions, this is already a high bar to achieve in order to feel like you're actually draining resources from the party.

If healing spells get better without changing anything else, that bar might become stratospheric. And this is assuming you actually can fit in the fabled 6ish encounters per game day.

Anything that the players can do to rest more often also has to be addressed, since that gives them more ready access to resources.

I can't stand this model personally, I want healing magic to feel worthwhile again. But at the same time, I'm not going to force extra battles just to pad out my adventure, and I also like big setpiece battles that are tougher than normal (and thus, might require better combat healing).

But as long as this is the way 5e is built, we're going to get pushback even if we mathematically prove that combat healing is terrible, because there are DM's who are looking at daily resources players have, and already feel it's too much.

I'm sure if Divine Spark leaves the playtest intact, that's going to be one more issue for them, especially since they also seem to want players to regain all Hit Dice at the end of a long rest, instead of half...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Good thing I don´t speak about nerfing the only reasonable spell. You can do whatever you want. But you can´t introduce such an imbalanced spell in an existing game. You need to buff the rest.

You seemed really upset that I included it, unnerfed, and said it was fine. Notably, even though I can supposedly do what I want I "can't" introduce the spell into the existing game. Even though I have proof in play that it is fine, because it is imbalanced.

But since the designers were not willing to errata so much in the PHB for good reason, the Healing spirit was rightfully nerfed.
Actually if I introduced healing spirit in the UA for OneDnd, I would buff healing spirit, so that the intend is clear, whatever that is and just increase the area of the spell to make sure, that everyone understands the power without rules mastery (like: out of combat, everyone can just cuddle together... wherever this is stated explicitely in the rules).

Why does the ability to give hugs need to be explicitly stated in the rules? Heck, carrying someone IS in the rules, and that would allow you to be in the same 5 ft space. You keep acting like this was some secret hack of the game engine instead of basic logic.

Now is the right time to buff healing spells correctly, not back then. This is why we have OneDnD, to redo things that annoyed us for a few years.

I don´t think your idea is correct though, because that would make for a lame game (as I experienced in the next playtest*), but something should be done (hint: use hit dice more).

So, how often do you want me to reiterate that, until you stop laying words in my mouth.

*if you like such a game, have fun with it, but for us, it was very lame. In some fights? Cool. In all fights? No thanks.

Right, now is the time to buff healing spells. Which is why I'm talking about buffing healing spells in the thread about the new healing spells. But you can't buff them by making them stronger? Because then the game would be lame? For reasons. Reasons that seem to be a pure white-room construct and have nothing to do with the actual buffs.

Now sure, I'd like to use Hit Dice more. That is a good mechanic that needs to be leveraged. But, again, raising healing so that a single target heal can handle the one action output of a CR appropriate monster after level 3, isn't going to make the game lame or unthreatening, unless you only ever send 1 CR appropriate monster at a time after the party.

And even if you had a whole party of healers, all using their actions to heal all the damage you dish out every round... so what? That's their strategy. Just like if you had an entire party of bladesinging wizards using shield and taking the dodge action to be impossible to hit. It would be a really boring fight, but I'm not going to nerf dodge or remove the shield spell because it is a potential possibility.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My statement wasn't about your meaning, but about what your statement results in.

Really? That's why the eye-roll emoji and the snide comment deriding why I said I was doing what I was doing? Because it wasn't about my meaning (which was implied by the statement you made) but about the results of my analysis.

When we are talking about keeping someone up for A SINGLE HIT by healing them at 10 hit points,

Which we aren't. The only time we are talking about a single hit is from monsters that can only make a single attack. So stop trying to make this about a single hit. It isn't about that.

Apparently you only heal in white room vacuum spaces where no other PC has healing spells, no one ever uses healing potions, and no one ever uses hit dice. The rest of us play in parties that use all sorts of different methods to heal, even when there is a healer there.

This isn't about you, the healer. 5e is taken as a whole, not some isolated white room portion. 5e is played with ALL resources available to the party to be used as needed, and 5e is balanced around ALL resources, not just you the healer.

Another PC with healing spells would be acting as a healer. So now healers can deal with 1 monster's turn by using TWO party members turns? That sounds like a good strategy to you? Because that sounds like a bad strategy to me.

Potions? Yeah, I'm not talking about potions, because I'm talking about healers. If healers are only viable if they supplement with magic items, then healers aren't viable. Also, potions are the option mainly taken by parties WITHOUT healers.

I'm also not talking about taking a short rest and using hit dice. Again, this has nothing to do with whether a healer in combat can properly heal the party. If you need to take a short rest while a gnoll is gnawing on your face, you are out of luck. Short Rests are mainly used to save the Healer's resources for later, during combat, when hit dice can't be used.

And yes, in discussions about healers in 5e, the discussion is about the healer. Not every single healing resoruce that could be conceivably dreamed up by the DM. It is about "does this character have the tools to fill the role". And the answer currently, is no. They don't. That is why it is a common refrain that healing is far too anemic in DnD 5e, despite the existence of short rests, potions, other party members, and unicorns.

They are pretty balanced(just not by CR). They're just not white room balanced such that every 1st level spell is equal and/or opposite to others. Cure is not supposed to be the opposite of burning hands and is not balance to be.

So which first level damage spell are they equal to? Name it.

Sure. And that's why you have Second Wind, healing potions, hit dice, etc. The game is not balanced around a healer. It's balanced around a party and all of its resources.

Because every non-healer is a fighter who has second wind.

Again, the healer should be balanced to be a proper healer. If I can't heal unless the fighter uses second wind and chugs a potion ON TOP of my best healing spell, then I suck as a healer.

Whack-a-mole is an issue, but not a new one. It has been around since 1e, though it became much more of a problem with hit points dropping to 0. That's the primary issue that results in whack-a-mole, not the healing spell itself. Your d8+whatever is going to be far less effective when cast on someone with -9 hit points.

And I wouldn't wait to heal someone who is just about to fall over dead, if it wasn't the only way to make my healing matter in gameplay. A factor you keep ignoring to tell me about the wonders of potions. (which, by the way, are also a joke of a healing resource and need MAJOR buffs)

 

[Maxperson]

Which we aren't. The only time we are talking about a single hit is from monsters that can only make a single attack. So stop trying to make this about a single hit. It isn't about that.

Then you're wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine with you.

Another PC with healing spells would be acting as a healer. So now healers can deal with 1 monster's turn by using TWO party members turns? That sounds like a good strategy to you? Because that sounds like a bad strategy to me.

I never said they were healing the same hit. I said that the game is balance around the entire party's resources, not one spell like you want to make it out to be.

And yes, in discussions about healers in 5e, the discussion is about the healer. Not every single healing resoruce that could be conceivably dreamed up by the DM. It is about "does this character have the tools to fill the role". And the answer currently, is no. They don't. That is why it is a common refrain that healing is far too anemic in DnD 5e, despite the existence of short rests, potions, other party members, and unicorns.

Then again, you're wasting your time. The game isn't balanced around the healer alone, so if you're trying to reduce it to only the healer and then talk balance, you're spinning your wheels.

So which first level damage spell are they equal to? Name it.

Because every non-healer is a fighter who has second wind.

Again, the healer should be balanced to be a proper healer. If I can't heal unless the fighter uses second wind and chugs a potion ON TOP of my best healing spell, then I suck as a healer.

And I wouldn't wait to heal someone who is just about to fall over dead, if it wasn't the only way to make my healing matter in gameplay. A factor you keep ignoring to tell me about the wonders of potions. (which, by the way, are also a joke of a healing resource and need MAJOR buffs)

So this is what you aren't getting. It's all "healing." The barbarian with resistance to all attacks but psychic is "healing" 8 points of the 16 done when he takes half damage. The rogue who sneak attacks and kills something early "heals" the damage that would have been done had the rogue not done so much damage so quickly and the monster lived another round or two.

WotC has the calculations with the abilities, spells, etc. and have balanced the game around all of it, not just your healer and his one spell. 5e is resource management that is based around hit points, and that's far more than just healing.